we still need a guard

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by bigSkinsfan61

i understand your concern and it is a valid one i believe the skins r just takin their time to see whats available we have 48 more days till the draft where i believe well see the skins wheel and deal quite a bit and find us a serviceable if not great OG.....im kinda glad were not just jumpin in with both feet right away feels kinda nice....


hail

Punctuation marks are your friend.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

If there is anyone who thinks they know about O-Line play:

How hard is it to switch from Tackle to Guard? Could most Tackles do it, could some, or is it difficult? I think Jacoby moved to guard at the end of his career. What I'm getting at is this: re-sign Wade and move Jansen to LG. Or move Wade to LG. Is this un-realistic? If so, why? It seems to me if you can play Tackle you should be able to play Guard.

tackles are supposed to be better than guards, and need more foot speed/agility to turn the corner vs DEs, whereas OGs just kinda need to stand there in space.

they're still different positions and take a while to adjust to, but, in general, most decent OTs could play OG relatively well.

[EXoffender]

We have some of the best OL in the league. Just like we plugged Dockery in there as a rookie and didn't miss a beat, we will do it again. We should be able to draft a top five DT or DE at number six but, if we trade down to aquire another pick to draft a G, perhaps we won't be able to draft a difference maker DT or DE like Branch or Jamaal Anderson are a lock to be.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Would that it wee so that the Redskins had "some of the best OL in the league". Sadly, that just doesn't hold up to rational analysis.

Is Rabach one of the top ten starting centers in the NFL? I doubt it. He may be in the top ten in the NFC, but even that is debatable. There are 32 starting centers; he's below 15 on the list.

Randy Thomas is a solid offensive guard. Is he one of the outstanding guards in the league? No. In fact, he's not one of the top three offensive guards in the NFC East. He's better than average and a fine player, but "one of the best" he is not.

Chris Samuels is one of the top ten left tackles in the NFL. He isn't nearly as good as all of his Pro-Bowl appearances might lead you to believe he is. He's not THE dominant left tackle in the NFC. But he's very good.

Jon Jansen used to be the best OL on the Skins but injuries - and maybe Father Time - have reduced his effectivness for the past two years. If it was "injuries" that did him in, we should see a huge improvement from that side of the OL next year; it it was Father Time, things will only get worse. I don't know which one it was and no one will really know until the actual season - not the exhibition season - begins.

Bottom Line: The Skins OL is OK; there are more than a few that are worse and there are more than a few that are better. And blind faith in Joe Bugeol to "work his magic" is just that; blind faith. He's been here for 3 seasons and the OL is only marginally better now than it was in his first season.

[dmek25]

i kind of disagree. not with your analysis, but with the results. i believe you do not need 5 pro bowlers, instead 5 guys that will do what needs to be done. without seeking glory, and not afraid to do the dirty work, the things that go unnoticed.

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Would that it wee so that the Redskins had "some of the best OL in the league". Sadly, that just doesn't hold up to rational analysis.

They were statistically at least a top 7 line in the league last year.

Is Rabach one of the top ten starting centers in the NFL? I doubt it. He may be in the top ten in the NFC, but even that is debatable. There are 32 starting centers; he's below 15 on the list.

Top 10? Easy. Gibbs praises the guy every chance he gets, and looking at their production the last two years, I am buying what he is selling.

Randy Thomas is a solid offensive guard. Is he one of the outstanding guards in the league? No. In fact, he's not one of the top three offensive guards in the NFC East. He's better than average and a fine player, but "one of the best" he is not.

Before Thomas' leg was broken, he was considered the best lineman on the team (that is according to Troy Aikman). I guess you have both of Philly's ahead of him because Dallas' line is comical and the Giants just blew their's up. I completely disagree.

Chris Samuels is one of the top ten left tackles in the NFL. He isn't nearly as good as all of his Pro-Bowl appearances might lead you to believe he is. He's not THE dominant left tackle in the NFC. But he's very good.

We will agree to disagree. I will go with the 4 pro bowls voted on by his peers.

Jon Jansen used to be the best OL on the Skins but injuries - and maybe Father Time - have reduced his effectivness for the past two years. If it was "injuries" that did him in, we should see a huge improvement from that side of the OL next year; it it was Father Time, things will only get worse. I don't know which one it was and no one will really know until the actual season - not the exhibition season - begins.

Jansen has never been better than Samuels. He isn't as good as he used to be but you cannot deny the production of the unit overall.

Bottom Line: The Skins OL is OK; there are more than a few that are worse and there are more than a few that are better. And blind faith in Joe Bugeol to "work his magic" is just that; blind faith. He's been here for 3 seasons and the OL is only marginally better now than it was in his first season.

The record did not show it but statistically they were one of the best in the league last year. They ran it down everybody's throat and gave up very few sacks even with Brunell starting several games. Feel free to offer up the evidence behind your analysis because it contradicts the year end analysis that I read.

[Longtimefan]

Originally Posted by Bill B

I think if they did this I would keep Jansen at Tackle and move Wade to Guard - that way we only have 1 new player on the starting line and less disruption on building continuity.

I believe if Wade does not get a large contract from some other team I think it would be in the Redskins best interest to sign him as a backup tackle and get the guard from elsewhere - the main reason being is both Samuels and Jansen are getting up in years and both have had some injuries and this would provide solid depth in case one of them goes down - is it realistic to expect both Samuels and Jansen to stay healthy the entire year for 2 seasons in a row?

The team is in the process of preparing a contract for Todd Wade presently. The numbers in that contract will give us a pretty good idea as to what his assignment with the team will be. The initial figures beindg discussed far excede those of a back-up RT. We should know more in the next couple days........Stay Tuned

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i kind of disagree. not with your analysis, but with the results. i believe you do not need 5 pro bowlers, instead 5 guys that will do what needs to be done. without seeking glory, and not afraid to do the dirty work, the things that go unnoticed.

I was going to comment on that guys analysis of our OL, but this post sums it up nicely. We have a group of VERY talented guys, and in fact, I would say that overall we had the best OL in the league last year. Bugel has done a great job. When Dockery first came to the Skins, he sucked. Sorry guys, I know a lot of you loved him here, but he was terrible, but had a lot of room for improvement. He should be thanking Bugel for that huge contract. Bugel made him into the good guard he became.
All we need is a team player at guard and we shouldn't miss a beat. Problem is, there are slim pickens from here, and we need our draft pick for a DE.

[That Guy]

SC, gotta disagree. please list who you think is better in the NFC east than thomas. he's still a very good guard in the league (and it take actually listing 10 players and why they're better to convince me he's not in the top 10). rabach might be in the top 15, he's right around average, so 14-16 is about where you'd expect him to be.

[sportscurmudgeon]

NFC East guards better than Randy Thomas? Chris Snee and Shawn Andrews - and maybe Leonard Davis next year but the jury is still way out on that last one. Take off the burgandy and gold colored glasses and you'd trade Thomas for either Snee or Andrews even-up any day of the week.

The Skins don't need - nor have they ever had or will they ever have - 5 ProBowlers on the OL; that's not the point. But they do need 5 guys who are all above average at their positions and that's not what they have now.

As to the statistics that tell everyone that this OL is a great unit - and most particularly to the stats for an OL which are mostly concocted - let me assure you that stats are for teams that finish 5-11. The Indy Colts' fans aren't parsing the stats of their OL; neither are the fans of the Bears, Saints, Pats, Chargers etc. As a unit, what teams in the playoffs this year were so much worse than the Skins on the OL? Maybe there was one; I can't think of one.

And if the Skins could indeed have run the ball don the throats of any opponent they may have faced, how come they didn't do just that? The reason is not that the play calling was stupid - - even though it was stupid more than a couple of times during the season. It was because the team couldn't actually do that. If they could and had, it would have kept the less than fully competent defense off the field for longer periods of time... And maybe the team would have been 7-9 instead of 5-11.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

If there is anyone who thinks they know about O-Line play:

How hard is it to switch from Tackle to Guard? Could most Tackles do it, could some, or is it difficult? I think Jacoby moved to guard at the end of his career. What I'm getting at is this: re-sign Wade and move Jansen to LG. Or move Wade to LG. Is this un-realistic? If so, why? It seems to me if you can play Tackle you should be able to play Guard.

As I understand it, some offensive lineman talked about this once, it's not hard to switch really from Tackle to Guard. What's hard is being asked to move from one side of the line to another. It's like batting right all your life and then one day coach says "swing lefty today." Your stance gets all out of wack.

According to this lineman, I think maybe it was Ogden, a left tackle is more likely to have success switching to left guard then he would switching to right tackle, even though you'd think that wouldn't be the case. .

[MTK]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I swear. We finally show some restraint in FA and half the people want to know why. We spend a lot in FA dn the other half want to know why. I guess there really is no pleasing everyone.

LOL I was thinking the same thing.

[DiehardSkin88]

lol.. SC, did u even watch during the reg season? I believe betts had some of the biggest holes i've seen, i truly believe if portis was the 1 back there u would be talking a completely different story. But i completely disagree with you saying our line is not in the top 10.

[MTK]

We had a very good OL last year, probably one of the best we've had in recent memory.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Would that it wee so that the Redskins had "some of the best OL in the league". Sadly, that just doesn't hold up to rational analysis.

Is Rabach one of the top ten starting centers in the NFL? I doubt it. He may be in the top ten in the NFC, but even that is debatable. There are 32 starting centers; he's below 15 on the list.

Randy Thomas is a solid offensive guard. Is he one of the outstanding guards in the league? No. In fact, he's not one of the top three offensive guards in the NFC East. He's better than average and a fine player, but "one of the best" he is not.

Chris Samuels is one of the top ten left tackles in the NFL. He isn't nearly as good as all of his Pro-Bowl appearances might lead you to believe he is. He's not THE dominant left tackle in the NFC. But he's very good.

Jon Jansen used to be the best OL on the Skins but injuries - and maybe Father Time - have reduced his effectivness for the past two years. If it was "injuries" that did him in, we should see a huge improvement from that side of the OL next year; it it was Father Time, things will only get worse. I don't know which one it was and no one will really know until the actual season - not the exhibition season - begins.

Bottom Line: The Skins OL is OK; there are more than a few that are worse and there are more than a few that are better. And blind faith in Joe Bugeol to "work his magic" is just that; blind faith. He's been here for 3 seasons and the OL is only marginally better now than it was in his first season.

Where to start here?

Well first off all of your evaluations look more like opinions than anything even though they are presented as facts.

First I'd like to know what you're basing your evaluations on? For example why do you think Rabach is below average? Why are other guards better than Thomas?

Second I'd like to know how you can make a statement like "I don't know which one it was and no one will really know until the actual season" about Jansen and then state later "But they do need 5 guys who are all above average at their positions and that's not what they have now." I thought you said you didn't know what Jansen was? Your last statement contrdicts that.

Thirdly you seem to have completely ignored the old saying about the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.

And fourthly I am astounded by the statement "He's been here for 3 seasons and the OL is only marginally better now than it was in his first season". Have you lost your mind. I distinctly remember how poor our line was just 3 years ago. To me, not being able to distinguish between the quality of our line this past season and just 3 years ago shows eaither a total lack of objectivity or just a plain old lack of understanding. It makes everything you say on this matter totally worthless when you make a statement like.

And say all you want about Burgundy colored glasses but not everyone wears those. There are a lot of people on this site who can be objective and you seem to always brand someone who disagrees as "wearing" these metphorical glasses. Could it be that as colored as some people's outlook is based on emotion yours is colored exactly opposite because your emotions lead you to disagree and be negative and pessimistic?