In a Perfect World: A Look Back at the 'Skins Major Offseason Moves

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 07-22-2004, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

I wondered why you've been so quiet, Ramseyfan...

I've been prepping for law school and busting my butt on this never-ending case at the law firm I'm working at.

Shane · 07-22-2004, 06:55 PM

The way I look at the new players is they will help us be a better team. To take the team to the next level at this stage, we need a super talented quarterback who has more than the comparatively tiny experience that Pat Ramsey has. Brunell is a guy that I believe will excel and be one of the top quarterbacks in the league this year. He is special and he is a perfect fit for a Joe Gibbs run offense, especially with the awesome protection Joe Bugel's men will provide for him. Ramsey will be there to fill in if Brunell does get nicked up, and meanwhile he is getting the training that really almost any very young quarterback should get before being thrown into the fire.

Regarding his contract, the key element is not the total dollar figure of the contract but the way it is structured. The way you compared it to Bulger is not the way a capologist would look at it.

Is he worth it? I believe he will be crucial in our success and that he would be much better for our team than any other quarterback we could have brought in here.

Regarding Clinton Portis and Champ Bailey - Bailey's attitude would have been a painful detriment to what the Redskins are building right now in my opinion. He didn't want to be here, and I think he will be much happier in Denver where he'll be the toast of the town. There was no question he had to go in my view. Clinton Portis provides incredible ability and I don't have a problem with adding the draft choice for him. Bailey we have already replaced with some very capable defensive backs led by Shawn Springs.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 07-22-2004, 07:07 PM

Regarding his contract, the key element is not the total dollar figure of the contract but the way it is structured. The way you compared it to Bulger is not the way a capologist would look at it.

Even if a contract is heavily backloaded, which Brunell's is, you've still got to look at that $8.6 million signing bonus and know that we are going to take a $5 million cap hit if he's cut after 3 years. You can't avoid that unless you plan on having Brunelll here for the next 5 or 6 years.

Regarding Clinton Portis and Champ Bailey - Bailey's attitude would have been a painful detriment to what the Redskins are building right now in my opinion. He didn't want to be here, and I think he will be much happier in Denver where he'll be the toast of the town. There was no question he had to go in my view. Clinton Portis provides incredible ability and I don't have a problem with adding the draft choice for him. Bailey we have already replaced with some very capable defensive backs led by Shawn Springs.

Bailey did have to go and I said asmuch in my original post. However, I just don't think we did what was best (even if what we did was good).

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 07-22-2004, 07:09 PM

BTW, I did cast the only vote endorsing my plan vs. Snyder/Gibbs'. :thumb:

skinsfanthru&thru · 07-22-2004, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shane

Regarding his contract, the key element is not the total dollar figure of the contract but the way it is structured. The way you compared it to Bulger is not the way a capologist would look at it.

Plus wasn't bulger a restricted fa and would have required giving up a 1st and 3rd pick?

SmootSmack · 07-22-2004, 11:22 PM

Ramseyfan I cast a vote for you because I liked the fact that you did more than the standard "the cap will kill us" "we need a GM" argument without offering any sort of solution. The fact that you took the time to provide alternatives merits a vote.

I think sometimes though you have to pounce an opportunity instead of waiting it to maybe come to you. We had the opportunity to get Brunell early and have him learning our offense and participating in our mini-camps from day one. Yeah we lost a third-round draft pick, but I think having security at QB early on is worth it. I don't want to be settling for Tim Couch (no offense Couch fans) in late June.

As for the draft, I would tend to make the same argument for getting Brunell. We could pile up on draft picks and risk what we've been going through with Sean Taylor, in terms of wondering will he be in camp on time. What we've done with our picks is use them as leverage for young proven players (i.e. Coles). We're getting young, proven players who are already signed and ready to go from day one.

Dana87 · 07-22-2004, 06:44 PM

No offence to Ramseyfan, but all I can say is thank God your not the Redskins GM. You would rather have a bunch of unproven talent then proven leaders and winners. While I would agree that I would have liked to not give up 2nd and 3rd round picks, that was the price to get proven players. Living in Jacksonville I have had the opportunity to watch Brunell every year since '95. He is a winner and will mentor Ramsey very well. A 3rd round pick is a small price to pay for a QB that will lead us to the playoffs then show Ramsey how to follow in his footsteps. He is far better than any of the free agent QB's that came available ie... Garcia, Couch, Testaverde, Blake. As for trading Champ Bailey who no longer wanted to be a Redskin even after Joe Gibbs came back, I can only say See Ya! Clinton Portis is a rare talent that you would never dream of being able to get before you heard the deal was in the works.As far as drafting a RB to carry the load for Gibbs' offense, I didn't see a back in the draft I would trust. There are alot of backs that look great in college and get fans all excited about there potential and then don't do anything in the Pros ie... Thomas Jones 1st RND, Curtis Enis 1st RND, Rashad Sallam 1st RND, Ron Dayne 1st RND, Tim Biakabatuka 1st RND, TJ Duckett 1st RND just to name a few. Brunell & Portis will make things much easier for WR's Coles, Gardner, McCants, & Thrash. When all is said and done Redskins Fans will be glad that Joe Gibbs is calling the shots in DC, and until I have 3 Super Bowl trophies in my show case I will refrain from second guessing him.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 07-22-2004, 06:59 PM

No offence to Ramseyfan, but all I can say is thank God your not the Redskins GM.

Yeah thank god we have Danny Snyder running the show because without him, we wouldn’t have been winning all these years since he took over.

You would rather have a bunch of unproven talent then proven leaders and winners.

No, I’d rather have proven leaders and winners, but you simply can’t afford to do that constantly a la Snyder-GM approach.

While I would agree that I would have liked to not give up 2nd and 3rd round picks, that was the price to get proven players. Living in Jacksonville I have had the opportunity to watch Brunell every year since '95. He is a winner and will mentor Ramsey very well. A 3rd round pick is a small price to pay for a QB that will lead us to the playoffs then show Ramsey how to follow in his footsteps. He is far better than any of the free agent QB's that came available ie... Garcia, Couch, Testaverde, Blake.

He is better than the other free agent QBs and I never said he wasn’t. But he’s 34, cost a bundle, and has a history of injuries.

As for trading Champ Bailey who no longer wanted to be a Redskin even after Joe Gibbs came back, I can only say See Ya! Clinton Portis is a rare talent that you would never dream of being able to get before you heard the deal was in the works.As far as drafting a RB to carry the load for Gibbs' offense, I didn't see a back in the draft I would trust. There are alot of backs that look great in college and get fans all excited about there potential and then don't do anything in the Pros ie... Thomas Jones 1st RND, Curtis Enis 1st RND, Rashad Sallam 1st RND, Ron Dayne 1st RND, Tim Biakabatuka 1st RND, TJ Duckett 1st RND just to name a few.

I think Jackson will be more than good. I’d like to have Peyton Manning, Patrick Ramsey, Marvin Harrison, Jeremy Shockey, Clinton Portis, etc. on my offense but you just can’t afford to do that. You can’t be stacked at every position with great free agents, you need those young, unproven players to build a franchise…..unless you’re talking fantasy football.

Brunell & Portis will make things much easier for WR's Coles, Gardner, McCants, & Thrash. When all is said and done Redskins Fans will be glad that Joe Gibbs is calling the shots in DC, and until I have 3 Super Bowl trophies in my show case I will refrain from second guessing him.

Wow, well then, I guess there isn’t much to discuss. I’m not the type to defer to anyone. If I think someone, even someone like Gibbs is doing something stupid, I’ll say so. Gibbs, who is probably one of the best coaches in NFL history, makes mistakes and when it comes to the salary cap, he’s as much of a novice as I am.

Sorry about the sarcasm….no offense intended.

Bergman14 · 07-22-2004, 07:11 PM

he might not post every day, but man when he does what a post!

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 07-22-2004, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergman14

he might not post every day, but man when he does what a post!

If you are referring to me thank you. Trust me, once the season nears I'm going postal....get it (yes, I know that was extremely corny). My posts won't be great but they will be often.

That Guy · 07-22-2004, 07:17 PM

and you have no gaurantees that you're choices would even be available... what if minn's offer wasn't on the table? how can you be sure they'd agree to the terms etc... its too hard to guess how 400 variables would shake out...

I personally do believe brunell got too much, but he is the best of the bunch, but I would do the portis trade everytime. Danny is paying over 10 mill for coaching isn't he? why skimp on the tools that the staff needs to win... there are serious personal decisions that will (most likely) have to be made because of how the FO has been operating, so Danny has to minimize the possibility of failures and take proven players when possible. All IMHO though.

skins009 · 07-22-2004, 09:06 PM

I like your plan Ramseyfan, its very similiar to my post a few weeks ago on what i would have done. Building through the draft is clearly the best way to build a team in this era of the salary cap. A strong draft class coupled with a FEW kep free agent signings allows you to have a talented team that you can KEEP together for a long time.

skins009 · 07-22-2004, 09:10 PM

The only think i don't agree with is the number 5 pick for a 21 and 32. That is clearly not a fair deal. Now the number 5 pick for 21, 32 and Ty law and now were talking. AND you know the patriots were trying to get rid of law.

That Guy · 07-22-2004, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Take a look at THIS much longer list of ONLY REDSKIN draftees from the SIX (not 15) years ending 2002 that did NOT perform: Greg Jones, Jamel Williams... Michael Moore...

Michael Moore.. so that's why he's so pissed off. I wouldn't say that bauman is out yet, though he clearly seems more fit for backup duty...

That Guy · 07-22-2004, 11:13 PM

Quote:

We have a pretty solid history of drafting well, so let's play to our strengths and build through the draft. Our track record for free agent acquisitions is much worse.

coles, hall, morton, portis, washington, barrow, etc, etc, etc

its harder to screw up in the draft when you have 20 scouts and 2 picks too

yeah yeah, his first years sucked, he still overpays... but i think our last two offseasons have been pretty solid overall.

View Poll Results: Which would have been better, "my plan" or how things actually worked out?
Ramseyfan's plan (yes I know hindsight is 20/20)	3	9.68%
Dan Snyder/Joe Gibbs' plan (how the offseason actually played out)	28	90.32%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

07-22-2004, 11:22 PM	#6
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	Ramseyfan I cast a vote for you because I liked the fact that you did more than the standard "the cap will kill us" "we need a GM" argument without offering any sort of solution. The fact that you took the time to provide alternatives merits a vote. I think sometimes though you have to pounce an opportunity instead of waiting it to maybe come to you. We had the opportunity to get Brunell early and have him learning our offense and participating in our mini-camps from day one. Yeah we lost a third-round draft pick, but I think having security at QB early on is worth it. I don't want to be settling for Tim Couch (no offense Couch fans) in late June. As for the draft, I would tend to make the same argument for getting Brunell. We could pile up on draft picks and risk what we've been going through with Sean Taylor, in terms of wondering will he be in camp on time. What we've done with our picks is use them as leverage for young proven players (i.e. Coles). We're getting young, proven players who are already signed and ready to go from day one. __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

07-22-2004, 06:44 PM	#7
Dana87 Special Teams Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Saint Augustine, Florida Age: 64 Posts: 130	Thank God No offence to Ramseyfan, but all I can say is thank God your not the Redskins GM. You would rather have a bunch of unproven talent then proven leaders and winners. While I would agree that I would have liked to not give up 2nd and 3rd round picks, that was the price to get proven players. Living in Jacksonville I have had the opportunity to watch Brunell every year since '95. He is a winner and will mentor Ramsey very well. A 3rd round pick is a small price to pay for a QB that will lead us to the playoffs then show Ramsey how to follow in his footsteps. He is far better than any of the free agent QB's that came available ie... Garcia, Couch, Testaverde, Blake. As for trading Champ Bailey who no longer wanted to be a Redskin even after Joe Gibbs came back, I can only say See Ya! Clinton Portis is a rare talent that you would never dream of being able to get before you heard the deal was in the works.As far as drafting a RB to carry the load for Gibbs' offense, I didn't see a back in the draft I would trust. There are alot of backs that look great in college and get fans all excited about there potential and then don't do anything in the Pros ie... Thomas Jones 1st RND, Curtis Enis 1st RND, Rashad Sallam 1st RND, Ron Dayne 1st RND, Tim Biakabatuka 1st RND, TJ Duckett 1st RND just to name a few. Brunell & Portis will make things much easier for WR's Coles, Gardner, McCants, & Thrash. When all is said and done Redskins Fans will be glad that Joe Gibbs is calling the shots in DC, and until I have 3 Super Bowl trophies in my show case I will refrain from second guessing him.

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07-22-2004, 06:55 PM	#2
Shane Special Teams Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 277	The way I look at the new players is they will help us be a better team. To take the team to the next level at this stage, we need a super talented quarterback who has more than the comparatively tiny experience that Pat Ramsey has. Brunell is a guy that I believe will excel and be one of the top quarterbacks in the league this year. He is special and he is a perfect fit for a Joe Gibbs run offense, especially with the awesome protection Joe Bugel's men will provide for him. Ramsey will be there to fill in if Brunell does get nicked up, and meanwhile he is getting the training that really almost any very young quarterback should get before being thrown into the fire. Regarding his contract, the key element is not the total dollar figure of the contract but the way it is structured. The way you compared it to Bulger is not the way a capologist would look at it. Is he worth it? I believe he will be crucial in our success and that he would be much better for our team than any other quarterback we could have brought in here. Regarding Clinton Portis and Champ Bailey - Bailey's attitude would have been a painful detriment to what the Redskins are building right now in my opinion. He didn't want to be here, and I think he will be much happier in Denver where he'll be the toast of the town. There was no question he had to go in my view. Clinton Portis provides incredible ability and I don't have a problem with adding the draft choice for him. Bailey we have already replaced with some very capable defensive backs led by Shawn Springs.

07-22-2004, 07:07 PM	#3
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 47 Posts: 8,317	Regarding his contract, the key element is not the total dollar figure of the contract but the way it is structured. The way you compared it to Bulger is not the way a capologist would look at it. Even if a contract is heavily backloaded, which Brunell's is, you've still got to look at that $8.6 million signing bonus and know that we are going to take a $5 million cap hit if he's cut after 3 years. You can't avoid that unless you plan on having Brunelll here for the next 5 or 6 years. Regarding Clinton Portis and Champ Bailey - Bailey's attitude would have been a painful detriment to what the Redskins are building right now in my opinion. He didn't want to be here, and I think he will be much happier in Denver where he'll be the toast of the town. There was no question he had to go in my view. Clinton Portis provides incredible ability and I don't have a problem with adding the draft choice for him. Bailey we have already replaced with some very capable defensive backs led by Shawn Springs. Bailey did have to go and I said asmuch in my original post. However, I just don't think we did what was best (even if what we did was good).

07-22-2004, 07:09 PM	#4
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 47 Posts: 8,317	BTW, I did cast the only vote endorsing my plan vs. Snyder/Gibbs'. :thumb:

07-22-2004, 06:59 PM	#8
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 47 Posts: 8,317	No offence to Ramseyfan, but all I can say is thank God your not the Redskins GM. Yeah thank god we have Danny Snyder running the show because without him, we wouldn’t have been winning all these years since he took over. You would rather have a bunch of unproven talent then proven leaders and winners. No, I’d rather have proven leaders and winners, but you simply can’t afford to do that constantly a la Snyder-GM approach. While I would agree that I would have liked to not give up 2nd and 3rd round picks, that was the price to get proven players. Living in Jacksonville I have had the opportunity to watch Brunell every year since '95. He is a winner and will mentor Ramsey very well. A 3rd round pick is a small price to pay for a QB that will lead us to the playoffs then show Ramsey how to follow in his footsteps. He is far better than any of the free agent QB's that came available ie... Garcia, Couch, Testaverde, Blake. He is better than the other free agent QBs and I never said he wasn’t. But he’s 34, cost a bundle, and has a history of injuries. As for trading Champ Bailey who no longer wanted to be a Redskin even after Joe Gibbs came back, I can only say See Ya! Clinton Portis is a rare talent that you would never dream of being able to get before you heard the deal was in the works.As far as drafting a RB to carry the load for Gibbs' offense, I didn't see a back in the draft I would trust. There are alot of backs that look great in college and get fans all excited about there potential and then don't do anything in the Pros ie... Thomas Jones 1st RND, Curtis Enis 1st RND, Rashad Sallam 1st RND, Ron Dayne 1st RND, Tim Biakabatuka 1st RND, TJ Duckett 1st RND just to name a few. I think Jackson will be more than good. I’d like to have Peyton Manning, Patrick Ramsey, Marvin Harrison, Jeremy Shockey, Clinton Portis, etc. on my offense but you just can’t afford to do that. You can’t be stacked at every position with great free agents, you need those young, unproven players to build a franchise…..unless you’re talking fantasy football. Brunell & Portis will make things much easier for WR's Coles, Gardner, McCants, & Thrash. When all is said and done Redskins Fans will be glad that Joe Gibbs is calling the shots in DC, and until I have 3 Super Bowl trophies in my show case I will refrain from second guessing him. Wow, well then, I guess there isn’t much to discuss. I’m not the type to defer to anyone. If I think someone, even someone like Gibbs is doing something stupid, I’ll say so. Gibbs, who is probably one of the best coaches in NFL history, makes mistakes and when it comes to the salary cap, he’s as much of a novice as I am. Sorry about the sarcasm….no offense intended.

07-22-2004, 07:11 PM	#9
Bergman14 Special Teams Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Winston-Salem Age: 43 Posts: 138	he might not post every day, but man when he does what a post!

07-22-2004, 07:17 PM	#11
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 43 Posts: 17,620	and you have no gaurantees that you're choices would even be available... what if minn's offer wasn't on the table? how can you be sure they'd agree to the terms etc... its too hard to guess how 400 variables would shake out... I personally do believe brunell got too much, but he is the best of the bunch, but I would do the portis trade everytime. Danny is paying over 10 mill for coaching isn't he? why skimp on the tools that the staff needs to win... there are serious personal decisions that will (most likely) have to be made because of how the FO has been operating, so Danny has to minimize the possibility of failures and take proven players when possible. All IMHO though.

07-22-2004, 09:06 PM	#12
skins009 Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 528	I like your plan Ramseyfan, its very similiar to my post a few weeks ago on what i would have done. Building through the draft is clearly the best way to build a team in this era of the salary cap. A strong draft class coupled with a FEW kep free agent signings allows you to have a talented team that you can KEEP together for a long time.

07-22-2004, 09:10 PM	#13
skins009 Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 528	The only think i don't agree with is the number 5 pick for a 21 and 32. That is clearly not a fair deal. Now the number 5 pick for 21, 32 and Ty law and now were talking. AND you know the patriots were trying to get rid of law.

In a Perfect World: A Look Back at the 'Skins Major Offseason Moves

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