A Misconception that should be rooted out

[JWsleep]

Hmmm... and I thought this was going to be a debate over the nature of scientific theories, the role of experiment and simplicity in the defense of a materialist ontology, etc. You know, fun stuff!

But as a liberal who voted against Bush, I find this whole line of debate unproductive. Crazyhorse, this debate is just the one that Karl Rove wants you to be having. So long as it's atheist liberals against religious conservatives, we are playing the wrong game. Stalinist Russia was largely atheist, and even the most ardent liberal no longer supports that "enlightened" regime. And many great liberal thinkers have been religious--Locke, John Adams, Lincoln. It's a red herring.

The reason that many Americans do not believe in evolution is that it is tied up with a North-South post-Civil war split. Evolution was widely seen as a Northern cultural invasion, and it is wrapped up with that, and with the rise of pentecostal fundamentalism that has swept this country since the late 50's (Billy Graham) and beyond to today. The Scopes trial was not about science; it was about politics and culture.

Criticize Bush by criticizing his policies--Iraq, Stem cells, the trade gap, the budget deficit, the lack of affordable health care, the suspension of Habeas Corpus and the gutting of our basic constitutional protections, Alberto Gonzales, Scooter Libby, etc., etc., etc.

Bringing in evolution is like bringing in gay marriage--it rallies social conservatives and clouds the issues: Liberals= anti-God. That is a debate better left to liberal arts classes in college. To the extent that it gets brought into today's current debate, Karl Rove is pleased. And that is very displeasing to me.

(PS Criticizing Bush does not equal criticizing the USA as the greatest nation on Earth--in fact, being able to criticize Bush is WHY this is the greatest nation on earth. That, and the other rights guaranteed by the constitution, if Bush stops taking a scissors to it!)

[hooskins]

Originally Posted by JWsleep

Hmmm... and I thought this was going to be a debate over the nature of scientific theories, the role of experiment and simplicity in the defense of a materialist ontology, etc. You know, fun stuff!

But as a liberal who voted against Bush, I find this whole line of debate unproductive. Crazyhorse, this debate is just the one that Karl Rove wants you to be having. So long as it's atheist liberals against religious conservatives, we are playing the wrong game. Stalinist Russia was largely atheist, and even the most ardent liberal no longer supports that "enlightened" regime. And many great liberal thinkers have been religious--Locke, John Adams, Lincoln. It's a red herring.

The reason that many Americans do not believe in evolution is that it is tied up with a North-South post-Civil war split. Evolution was widely seen as a Northern cultural invasion, and it is wrapped up with that, and with the rise of pentecostal fundamentalism that has swept this country since the late 50's (Billy Graham) and beyond to today. The Scopes trial was not about science; it was about politics and culture.

Criticize Bush by criticizing his policies--Iraq, Stem cells, the trade gap, the budget deficit, the lack of affordable health care, the suspension of Habeas Corpus and the gutting of our basic constitutional protections, Alberto Gonzales, Scooter Libby, etc., etc., etc.

Bringing in evolution is like bringing in gay marriage--it rallies social conservatives and clouds the issues: Liberals= anti-God. That is a debate better left to liberal arts classes in college. To the extent that it gets brought into today's current debate, Karl Rove is pleased. And that is very displeasing to me.

(PS Criticizing Bush does not equal criticizing the USA as the greatest nation on Earth--in fact, being able to criticize Bush is WHY this is the greatest nation on earth. That, and the other rights guaranteed by the constitution, if Bush stops taking a scissors to it!)

Great post, and I especially agree with the last statement. I am sure many of us take that freedom for granted. I am highly critical of our leadership, but I am still grateful I have the right to be critical.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by JWsleep

PS Criticizing Bush does not equal criticizing the USA as the greatest nation on Earth--in fact, being able to criticize Bush is WHY this is the greatest nation on earth.

I wholeheartedly agree. My little tangent was in response to Crazyhorse's statement that "this is not a good country" and to my friends' similar sentiments. I am a liberal who voted against Bush twice, but I am disturbed by a trend I see in liberal America where it has become popular to piss on our country (as opposed to disagreeing with Bush or right-leaning politicians).

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Am I the only one who feels this is out of line?

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Djnemo brings up a good point. Let's try to keep this debate civil. I strongly disagree with, but respect, crazyhorse.

I'd love to know where it is out of line. I didn't call him a name or curse or go crazy on him. I just think his line of thinking is an absolute disgrace. I don't agree with dmek on just about any political point but he at least displays respect for our country, our way of life, and our government in general. Crazyhorse displays disdain for everything American. He wants us to be a country we are not and never were. I think people like him should seriosuly consider living somewhere else. If we, the most free, the most diverse, the envied, the most respected nation in the world are a bad country than humans are doomed. And don't try to argue the most respected thing. The argument that other countries hate us is inaccurate. There are certainly people who don't like us but by and large we are respected more than anyone. Maybe we are also the most disrespected country too but it isn't an either/or situation. 95% of the countries in the world get neither respect nor disprespect because they are of such little global consequence. The only countries that get respect/disrespect on a global level are the ones with power. Of which we have the most and therefore get the respect and disrespect.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I'd love to know where it is out of line. I didn't call him a name or curse or go crazy on him. I just think his line of thinking is an absolute disgrace. I don't agree with dmek on just about any political point but he at least displays respect for our country, our way of life, and our government in general. Crazyhorse displays disdain for everything American. He wants us to be a country we are not and never were. I think people like him should seriosuly consider living somewhere else. If we, the most free, the most diverse, the envied, the most respected nation in the world are a bad country than humans are doomed. And don't try to argue the most respected thing. The argument that other countries hate us is inaccurate. There are certainly people who don't like us but by and large we are respected more than anyone. Maybe we are also the most disrespected country too but it isn't an either/or situation. 95% of the countries in the world get neither respect nor disprespect because they are of such little global consequence. The only countries that get respect/disrespect on a global level are the ones with power. Of which we have the most and therefore get the respect and disrespect.

I'll PM you

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I'd love to know where it is out of line. I didn't call him a name or curse or go crazy on him. I just think his line of thinking is an absolute disgrace. I don't agree with dmek on just about any political point but he at least displays respect for our country, our way of life, and our government in general. Crazyhorse displays disdain for everything American. He wants us to be a country we are not and never were. I think people like him should seriosuly consider living somewhere else. If we, the most free, the most diverse, the envied, the most respected nation in the world are a bad country than humans are doomed. And don't try to argue the most respected thing. The argument that other countries hate us is inaccurate. There are certainly people who don't like us but by and large we are respected more than anyone. Maybe we are also the most disrespected country too but it isn't an either/or situation. 95% of the countries in the world get neither respect nor disprespect because they are of such little global consequence. The only countries that get respect/disrespect on a global level are the ones with power. Of which we have the most and therefore get the respect and disrespect.

Rose-colored glasses will not help our country regain its former position of moral, ethical, and intellectual leadership in our world. Before we can correct our course we must fully understand how far off course we have been. We have been murderous and have broken our traditions concerning torture, habeus corpus, international law; our attack on Iraq was unnecessary, unethical, and incredibly stupid. Our government has made lying, spying, and tyranny a policy and many of us have supported it all, many have supported much of it, and others have done nothing. We have attacked global warming, evolution, medical breakthoughs, even the undeniable physics of water and levees, as well as ignored truths unearthed by our intelligence agencies. We have been heartless and mindless and terrified of shadows.
If I had written a novel fifteen years ago featuring such a series of national failings, no one would have published it because no reader would have believed it. If you are not utterly shocked it's probably because you're asleep or dead. I started this thread with a discussion of terms of science and evolution because we are suffering from a basic national failure to come to grips with reality: laws and theories of science are basic. Evolution has a clear message: Evolve out of your primitive, mindless, greedy, fearful, heartless state or die.
There are plenty of George Bushes out there and we may even have a few more already in the pipeline. We don't have to follow them.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

Rose-colored glasses will not help our country regain its former position of moral, ethical, and intellectual leadership in our world. Before we can correct our course we must fully understand how far off course we have been. We have been murderous and have broken our traditions concerning torture, habeus corpus, international law; our attack on Iraq was unnecessary, unethical, and incredibly stupid. Our government has made lying, spying, and tyranny a policy and many of us have supported it all, many have supported much of it, and others have done nothing. We have attacked global warming, evolution, medical breakthoughs, even the undeniable physics of water and levees, as well as ignored truths unearthed by our intelligence agencies. We have been heartless and mindless and terrified of shadows.
If I had written a novel fifteen years ago featuring such a series of national failings, no one would have published it because no reader would have believed it. If you are not utterly shocked it's probably because you're asleep or dead. I started this thread with a discussion of terms of science and evolution because we are suffering from a basic national failure to come to grips with reality: laws and theories of science are basic. Evolution has a clear message: Evolve out of your primitive, mindless, greedy, fearful, heartless state or die.
There are plenty of George Bushes out there and we may even have a few more already in the pipeline. We don't have to follow them.

Ok, you disagreed with the decision to attack Iraq. We get it. How many threads do you want to start telling us the same thing?

But it amazes me how you continue to think, or at least give the impression that you think, that all that you allege above has never happened before in this country. You think international laws were never violated, spying never occurred, habeas corpus was never suspended? It's happened before and it'll happen again.

Do you plan on discussing the Redskins again at some point on this message board, or do you want this just to be your bitchfest bully pulpit?

PS: FRPLG, I retract my PM to you

[KLHJ2]

I am trying to figure out how this erupted from a theory and law discussion. I always miss the good stuff.

[djnemo65]

There are people on this site that I as an American am embarrassed of. People who I think are the problem with our country. But I don't write this about them publicly because I understand that to be in contrast to both the policy and spirit of this message board. I am quite surprised that this type of language seems to be okay with the mods here.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

There are people on this site that I as an American am embarrassed of. People who I think are the problem with our country. But I don't write this about them publicly because I understand that to be in contrast to both the policy and spirit of this message board. I am quite surprised that this type of language seems to be okay with the mods here.

What do you mean by the last statement there?

[70Chip]

The thing is that it will never be rooted out. Religion is ineradicable (see Freud). I wish all the people I diasagree with would go away too, but alas...

One problem is that scientists tend to be very poor communicators. They have done a poor job of explaining what natural selection is and why we should believe it. I tend not to take people's word for things. That's just substituting new prophets for old.

I don't think most people who say they believe in evolution know the first thing about it. At least not the ones that I have met. They mostly rail against the backward and superstitious fools who disagree with them and leave it there. If someone would take the time to explain it to people in a way that makes sense then I think the average person would say, "yeah, that makes sense." I don't know why they don't do that. They have PBS shows that explain all sorts of complex ideas. Einstein's quest to unify relativity and quantum mechanics, black holes, and the like. When it comes to Darwin, we get some old British actor traipsing about Galapagos with lots of pretty pictures of turtles. It shouldn't be that hard to explain the science, especially given all that we have learned about DNA in the last few years.

[Crazyhorse1]

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Gallup_Majority_of_Republicans_doubt_evolution
_0611.html

Not a shock, merely the obvious, which backs up my view that the religious right, churchgoers or not, are very much driving the GOP, which has driven this war. 68% of Republicans doubt evolution. Same guys and gals who support torture, the Iraq invasion and occupation, doubt global warming, hate the U.N., think cluster bombing for children is OK, believe gays are unnatural, used to believe that slavery was supported by the Bible, equate the President with America and think liberals are unAmerican, in spite of the fact that the liberal creed is almost a celebration of the philosophy of Christ..

The religious right in America is as dangerous to freedom in America as the Islamic religious right continues to be in the Middle East. Further, the religious right in America is the spear carrier for the GOP and as such is at odds with Christian philosophy in regard to war, the poor, kindness, generousity, loving one's neighbors, the corrupting power of riches, the arrogance of punishment, the illusion of worldly success and temporal power, etc.

Bush is both a warning and a proof that this is true.

Just so you know: I've gone to almost very evangelical church in my area a number of times. I really enjoy the music and the whole energy of the scene. I like it. I was raised in it, and I enjoy it, as well as know it very well. I do not believe in it, since there's no reason to. I do, however, believe in the morality and wisdom of Christ's teachings. They weren't particularly original, of course, but I embrace most of them anyway.

[djnemo65]

I don't get the impression that you are that upset but what I consider to be a pretty inflammatory comment. Am I wrong?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

I don't get the impression that you are that upset but what I consider to be a pretty inflammatory comment. Am I wrong?

You talking about FRPLG's comments?

[MTK]

We banned political talk for a while here for good reason, let's not go back down that road. Keep it civil.