John Glenn quote (warning, some content may incite anger)

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Well evidence shows we didn't have much of a plan whether you think we did or not. We had no inkling of what it would take to manage the peace and WE KNOW THAT NOW since we have the benefit of history as proof. If you want to quibble about semantics and the meaning or "we didn't have aplan" then go for it. What I meant and I think any reasonable person knows this is that whatever our plan was it was poorly constructed and appears to have been nothing but an afterthought. All in all it appears our "plan" wasn't much of a plan at all more than a vague naive notion of cheering crowds happy to see us liberate them. And as other s can atest to I am anything but "diametrically" opposed to this administration. I call it being honest and not being idealogical or partisan.



Think what you want but Rumsfeld's drive for power WAS a big motivating factor behind the entire Iraq theatre.



Or maybe someone who doesn't has their head in the sand.

I don't think it's having my head in the sand to say "right or wrong, we're already over there so we need to finish this before we lose focus among all of the investigation and woulda, coulda, shoulda." It's realistic, simply a matter of focusing on the task at hand. There will be all eternity for the hindsight crowd.

There are a ton of lessons to be learned from mistakes that were made in this conflict. I don't think that's anything new...

I think it's very presumptious to say that the administration's idea was that we would be welcomed by adoring crowds. I think that was clearly the public's perception, but I know that we in the military were never given that impression. Our commanders were telling us that this was going to be a real difficult situation from the start. I think if the average american had realistic, non-idealized expectations of war then you wouldn't see so much hand-wringing now.

[EternalEnigma21]

so unless people are making foreign policies or agreeing with the decisions being made they should keep their mouths shut, huh? cool beans. I'm PM'ing you an invite to a local book burning I'd like you to attend

[djnemo65]

I don't know how you turn the mismanagement of this war into a democrat/republican issue (as if that in any way has a bearing on the inefficacy of its execution) and then substantiate your point by quoting one of the most famous democratic senators of all time. You can't turn it into a partisan issue and then quote the other side.

By the way, if you guys want to watch a stunning Iraq documentary check out No End in Sight. It skips the debate about the legality of the war and starts with the premise that the war could have been very successful, if not for a series of stunning errors by the Bush Team, particularily Rumsfeld and Bremer. It is by far the best film on this topic that I have seen.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

By the way, if you guys want to watch a stunning Iraq documentary check out No End in Sight. It skips the debate about the legality of the war and starts with the premise that the war could have been very successful, if not for a series of stunning errors by the Bush Team, particularily Rumsfeld and Bremer. It is by far the best film on this topic that I have seen.

I am actually a very firm believer in the fundamental idea behind this war (the real idea about establishing democracies and creating allies...not that crap about WMDs, etc..) and I think it WILL eventually work if we start doing it correctly and have some patience. But Rummy and his ilk f*cked this up. They just did, and it has nothing to do with a failure of their ideas rather than piss poor execution. Even the staunchest of Iraq war supporters have to see how badly this has been executed.

[saden1]

Are we counting the wounded and those that commit suicide after they come back? It's so sad that only the dead get counted and those who are not dead are forgotten. Also, are we counting the dead Iraq civilians too or is that collateral damage and irrelevant?

Your picture is incomplete at best.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by saden1

Are we counting the wounded and those that commit suicide after they come back? It's so sad that only the dead get counted and those who are not dead are forgotten. Also, are we counting the dead Iraq civilians too or is that collateral damage and irrelevant?

Your picture is incomplete at best.

Great points.

[onlydarksets]

For real? The lack of substantive thought behind this thread is disappointing.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

For real? The lack of substantive thought behind this thread is disappointing.

In what way? I am not sure I understand.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

In what way? I am not sure I understand.

The "source" email is fact-grazing, and the sole purpose of this thread is flame bait. That's disappointing.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

The "source" email is fact-grazing, and the sole purpose of this thread is flame bait. That's disappointing.

I couldn't disagree much more. The e-mail may be junk but the discussion has been reasonable.

[onlydarksets]

I never said the discussion hasn't been civil.

[saden1]

Blame everything on Rummy, apparently Dick and W are not culpable any more. We are talking about guys who recently said "being in Iraq is romantic and I am envious" and another guy who said "so, public opinion doesn't matter, plus they volunteered" and "Iraq is going great." If these guys don't turn your stomach, you really, really, need to check your humanity.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by saden1

Blame everything on Rummy, apparently Dick and W are not culpable any more. We are talking about guys who recently said "being in Iraq is romantic and I am envious" and another guy who said "so, public opinion doesn't matter, plus they volunteered" and "Iraq is going great." If these guys don't turn your stomach, you really, really, need to check your humanity.

I don't think either one is corrupt or "evil." I think they are both terribly misguided and lack sound judgment. You don't have to gate them just because you don't like their politics and think they've made some awful decision.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by saden1

Blame everything on Rummy, apparently Dick and W are not culpable any more. We are talking about guys who recently said "being in Iraq is romantic and I am envious" and another guy who said "so, public opinion doesn't matter, plus they volunteered" and "Iraq is going great." If these guys don't turn your stomach, you really, really, need to check your humanity.

Classic viewpoint of someone who has never served. I do believe that some people get their ideas of what military life is like from the movie's they watch... Ask any veteran how romantic Iraq is.

[mheisig]

Political affiliations aside, everyone seems to skip over the fact that no country in human history has ever invaded another country, won the hearts and minds of the people, installed a democratic form of government and then had everything turn out well.

You can't shove your governmental architecture on people who don't want it. Most invasions in history were of the "invade, kill everyone and enslave a few" kind. I don't know where we get this idea that we're going to invade someone's country and they'll end up loving us and adopting our form of government.