Sometimes Its Who You Keep Not Who You Sign

[warriorzpath]

I think Ryan Clark has improved considerably since leaving the redskins. That's not the same hard-hitting player in Pittsburgh that was playing in Washington.

I am wondering how did he improved so much. Remember the game with the chargers back in 2005, one of Clark's last games as a redskins.. Ryan Clark - UPI.com

I think this was fresh in the redskins coaches' and fo's minds when they let him go. Who'd have known he would get this much better.

[mvb2328]

Originally Posted by horny4zorny-nohomo

am i the only one that thinks jason taylor is bad luck

@ the dolphins 1-15

redskinz he got hurt, and only 3.5 sacks even though the previous year he had over 15...
and we were 8-8 after a 6-2 start with a rookie coach.. if we get him back i hope he gets 3x as much sacks!

if taylor comes back he will have atleast 10 sacks next year. there is no way he has another fluke injury like he did this year. taylor played well late in the year when he was healthy and used to playing in the 4-3 d.

[Trample the Elderly]

I'm tired of seeing other teams win with guys we drafted or let go. It's just sad.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Dockery was asking for a shitload of money, if I recall correctly it was around a $17 million signing bonus. Interesting point about Thomas.



Who'd have known Archuleta would have been so terrible. But Williams insisted, I thought Arch was overrated but my gosh he was terrible. Even Gibbs, who could find good in just about everyone, thought he was a waste



Fair point

I was excited about AA at the time, but evidently people who know more about football than me thought it was a horrible move and that he was a bad fit for our system. That point aside, everyone who had half a brain realized that we were giving him waaaaaay to big of a contract. his potential as a SS aside, he was just coming off a back injury and his own team didnt want him. He only got sniffs from a couple other teams and we give him the biggest contract ever for a safety?... we can blame Williams for wanting AA in the first place, but i'm pretty sure Williams had nothing to do with the obscene 30M/10Mgaraunteed we gave AA to sign. I place that squarely on our FO.

As far as Dockery goes, I seem to remember the skins and dockery were both squabbling over a difference in garaunteed money, but Dock wasnt even asking for more than 12M or so, which was entirely reasonable at the the time.... but once Dock hit free agency (where there were very few free agent guards available and the cap had just risen enormously), he ended up getting well more than he had ever dreamed - over 18M garaunteed if i remember correctly. If the skins had judged the market correctly, i am positive they would have locked up dockery when they had the chance.

My point is unless we're dealing with someone who is clearly being unreasonable, we should work to extend our own young guys when we can - if theyre good, of course.

For example, I think we should give Hall his 16M garaunteed before he has the opportunity to taste the market. He will make over 20 if he hits the open market. Is that alot? - yes. But he'll be the #2corner available and anyone who doesnt want to give that oakland dude 30M+ garaunteed would gladly pay Hall 20-22.

[warriorzpath]

I think if ryan clark was still with the redskins - he wouldn't be the player he is now. Just a feeling. What does this say (about the redskins)?... I don't exactly know.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

I think if ryan clark was still with the redskins - he wouldn't be the player he is now. Just a feeling. What does this say (about the redskins)?... I don't exactly know.

All it says is people seem to think everyone on other teams are great and our players suck. It's all about perspective. And what kind of player is Clark right now anyway? He's a solid player, as he was here. It's not like he turned into Sean Taylor in Pittsburgh.

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

All it says is people seem to think everyone on other teams are great and our players suck. It's all about perspective. And what kind of player is Clark right now anyway? He's a solid player, as he was here. It's not like he turned into Sean Taylor in Pittsburgh.

Actually, judging by the jarring hits that he has made recently - especially the one on McGahee - I think he HAS turned into the Sean Taylor of Pittsburgh.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

When we let Clark go, he was a very good starting safety asking for a very reasonable amount of money. we had the cap space, but we let him go to sign Archuletta to a deal where his garaunteed money was more than the total contract money it would have cost to keep Clark.

If we had kept Clark, not only would we have not drafted Archuletta, but we also wouldnt have needed to draft Landry either. So thats not one, but TWO huge contracts we had to sign because we didnt pay Clark his worth. Those two contracts (and draft pick in the case of Landry) could have been used to upgrade other areas of our team. At the time, DL was a very pressing need and it still is now.

If we had kept Clark, we could have signed one of the many DT/DEs available in place of Archuletta) and drafted another in 2007 place of Landry. Taking it a step further, with our DL situation pretty much set, we wouldnt have traded next years 2nd rounder and 2010s 6th rounder to Miami last year for Jason Taylor when Phillip Daniels got hurt. We also wouldnt have traded a 7th to the Vikings for James.

Entering this years draft, our DL would be set and we would have picks in rounds 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7.

Some can try to overlook snubbing ryan clark as being just one small mistake, but the way I see it, the trickle down effect was huge. Even if we chose to address different areas in free agency and the draft, our team would be stronger today.

This team has shown over the past decade that it overvalues other teams' free agents and our own old, decling veterans, while undervaluing our homegrown young guys. This team would be much younger, stronger, and in better salary cap shape right now if we had decided to pay guys like Antonio Pierce, Dockery, and Clark to stick around. All of them were the definition of "core skins" at the time and were offering us a hometown discount to stay. instead, we let them go and replaced them by signing older FA Vets, trading picks away for older vets (Kendall to replace Dockery), and spending high draft picks to replace them.

Some really good points here dude and as unpopular as it is to say around these parts, this is yet another indication how Joe Gibbs' 4 years probably set us back at least 8. In his 4 years as team president, the triumverate of Gibbs, Cerrato and Snyder made our core much older, more stale and less cap solvent than the team he inherited in '04. As a result in '08 and seemingly in '09 we won't be players in the free agent market.

As you mentioned, roster holes created or not addressed during his tenure have forced us to address roles that we got worse at with their replacements (more on that in a minute) AND we don't have an adequate number of picks to replenish what we need.

3 of Gibbs/Vinny/Snyder's moves had a huge detrimental effect on our current roster and will linger for years.

1. Antonio Pierce-Biggest blunder of the Gibbs era outside of Mark Brunell. To let a young MLB entering his prime go to a division rival is unacceptable. Not only have we seen Pierce blossom into a Pro Bowler and win a SB in NY while we wasted 2 years on Lemar Marshall, we've also created a hole within a hole with Fletcher. Yes, he's been great since he got here but he's going to be 35 next year which means a high draft pick or significant money is going to have to be spent within the next 2 years which wouldn't have been necessary.

2. Fred Smoot-He was a much better CB his first time around than he is now. Simply re-signing him would have allowed us to address what was a pressing matter then, still is now and likely will be for the foreseeable future-rushing the passer. With Smoot and Springs settled at CB we would have had our pick of Shawn Merriman or DeMarcus Ware. Instead, in a top 10 filled with underachieving CB (Pac Man Jones, Antrell Rolle & Carlos Rogers) we got a decent #2 CB, which is exactly what we already had in Smoot.

3. Ryan Clark-We won't even get into the Ryan Clark/Adam Archuleta discussion, that's too easy. Let's look at what might have been in the draft. If we didn't have to replace Clark AND Archuleta with Landry in the 1st round numerous options could have presented themselves. We could have packaged the #6 pick with others to try to move up for Calvin Johnson, instead of signing London Fletcher we could have picked Patrick Willis or we could have been more aggressive and forward thinking and tried to actively shop the pick for suitors for Adrian Peterson or even (if Cerrato is true to 'best player available') drafted Peterson and had a hell of a backfield. Then again, if smarter moves were made previously we probably wouldn't have been picking 6th!

Of course hindsight is 20/20 and we can play the woulda, shoulda, coulda all night long. I'm no fan of Matt Millen, I mean Vinny Cerrato, but our current problems log back to our prior failings from our 'leadership' team.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

Actually, judging by the jarring hits that he has made recently - especially the one on McGahee - I think he HAS turned into the Sean Taylor of Pittsburgh.

He was never afraid of throwing his body around when he was a Redskin either. Regardless he is still no #21, not even close.

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

He was never afraid of throwing his body around when he was a Redskin either. Regardless he is still no #21, not even close.

I disagree - as a redskin, he may have been looking to make some tackles, but now he's looking to put people out on the stretcher with the way he hits. There's a big difference.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by horny4zorny-nohomo

am i the only one that thinks jason taylor is bad luck

@ the dolphins 1-15

redskinz he got hurt, and only 3.5 sacks even though the previous year he had over 15...
and we were 8-8 after a 6-2 start with a rookie coach.. if we get him back i hope he gets 3x as much sacks!

I think Taylor has bad luck in general. He goes from having a good season in a bad team to getting that calf injury that turned out to be more serious than it looked.

[vallin21]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

I disagree - as a redskin, he may have been looking to make some tackles, but now he's looking to put people out on the stretcher with the way he hits. There's a big difference.

Ryan Clark is no ST. Sean had speed, range, instincts and hands, which Clark lacks in all. It was not just his hits that made him good, it was the ability to cover and catch ints ('07). Ryan Clark is good for a few hits but his cover skills and speed are very mediocore.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

I'm tired of seeing other teams win with guys we drafted or let go. It's just sad.

That happens to every team in the league, I mean look at Randy Moss, sucked in Oakland, did a helluva job in New England. Hall sucked in Oakland, did a good job for us. (And come to think of it, it could be way worst...we could be Oakland)

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by vallin21

Ryan Clark is no ST. Sean had speed, range, instincts and hands, which Clark lacks in all. It was not just his hits that made him good, it was the ability to cover and catch ints ('07). Ryan Clark is good for a few hits but his cover skills and speed are very mediocore.

I wouldn't dare compare him to Sean Taylor - even if I thought he was a better player. The thought has never crossed my mind - (a major reason is out of respect).

Saying he's the Sean Taylor of Pittsburgh is putting his abilities in relation to his impact on his team in Pittsburgh (and his way of playing) and entirely different than making a comparison to THE Sean Taylor.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

All it says is people seem to think everyone on other teams are great and our players suck. It's all about perspective. And what kind of player is Clark right now anyway? He's a solid player, as he was here. It's not like he turned into Sean Taylor in Pittsburgh.

He has improved alot and is one of the hardest hitters in the NFL right now. For the price, id take him over Landry in a heartbeat (assuming we had our #6overall pick back.)

This is somewhat unrelated, but I don't like Landry and Horton in their current roles. They both need to play SS. If we had the same corners we had now, i'd take Clark (FS) and Horton (SS) with our 2007 1st rounder back and used on a DE or DT over our current configuration and be deliriously happy. For what its worth, I'd also trade Horton for a 2nd rounder in a heartbeat if someone offered as much.

This team simly does not know how to select (and keep) the right defensive players and then use them effectively. The failure is two-fold. Its a failure in Vinny in giving Blache (and previously Williams) the right personnel for their system and its a failure in Blache (and previously Williams) in failing to adapt their system to fit the players Vinny gave them. Now that I think of it, the problems plagued our offense too. In the end, we've hired coaches to run a certain system, but we have never given them the right players to make their system work. Great coaches adapt their systems to their players, but it would be a whole lot easier for the FO to just pick the right players in the first place. its not that the FO NEVER picks the right players, it just does it about 50% of the time. thats simply not good enough.