How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan

[redskins forever]

i just think in my opinion the players selected post cerrotto era are better and better value then while he was there although i give him landry and orakpo. the players selected this year and last gave us phenomenal depth at each position that we drafted at like hulu in the 4th, royster in the 6th, neild in the 7th. its not hard to hit on mid to late 1st round picks just make sure you pick the position that you need not the one you want

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'm sorry Tripp but I have to really rip you for saying it's the same front office, because that makes no sense. Is it the same scouting group, sure. But when people refer to the "front office", they are referring to the person(s) who are ultimately making the player acquisition decisions.

Scouting departments are front office support people, not decision makers. They evaluate the talent. They evaluated it for Cerrato and now the evaluate the talent for Shanahan. But that's a huge delineation.

Shanahan, his son, and Haslett are defining and communicating the type of players they are looking for, while Campbell and his team go find them. In the past, Campbell and his team would go find them, and Vinny would end up picking whoever he thought would work best for Zorn.

But Vinny and Zorn weren't communicating, and it's clear in this article that Campbell was saying he wasn't getting much in the way of direction from the decision makers at the top. So it's no wonder Vinny went with the BPA strategy when he was in charge - the communication was so poor between coach, GM, and scouts that he didn't even adequately grasp what the team needed.

Scouts are only as good as the decision makers they support. You can provide all the quality analysis in the world, but if the decision makers can't communicate well enough to put the analysis to good use, then shitty decisions get made.

I think with the way Shanahan is making better use of Campbell's abilities, it bodes well for improved drafting and team composition going forward.

The big issue is, if you have an old 'front office' who lacked basic communication skills and tried to load the team full of talent and just hoped that it all worked out in the end (and blamed others when it didn't), and you have a different front office that communicates what it needs and trains its scouts to find a certain kind of player, and still consistently makes questionable decisions (maybe not so much on the college level), where is the issue? That the team consistently makes questionable hires for its 'front office' or that it's not changing the right pieces.

I'm on board with the idea that things have gotten better in the last two months from where they bottomed out in October, but the positives in the Shanahan front office sure feel a lot like the positives from the Cerrato front office. The biggest issue remains the lack of substantive organizational year-to-year improvement.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

The big issue is, if you have an old 'front office' who lacked basic communication skills and tried to load the team full of talent and just hoped that it all worked out in the end (and blamed others when it didn't), and you have a different front office that communicates what it needs and trains its scouts to find a certain kind of player, and still consistently makes questionable decisions (maybe not so much on the college level), where is the issue? That the team consistently makes questionable hires for its 'front office' or that it's not changing the right pieces.

I'm on board with the idea that things have gotten better in the last two months from where they bottomed out in October, but the positives in the Shanahan front office sure feel a lot like the positives from the Cerrato front office. The biggest issue remains the lack of substantive organizational year-to-year improvement.

Substantive year to year improvement won't be realized when the star LT drafted by Shanahan and the athletic TE replacing the injured star TE are both suspended by the league for smoking pot during a period when they thought they would not be tested. Further, year to year improvement also will not be realized when the dearth of talent left behind by the Cerrato regime is THIS bad.

I won't defend every move Shanahan has made - the McNabb deal was terrible for one and set us back in finding the next quality Redskins QB.

But some turnarounds take more time. I'd think you of all people would espouse a patient approach after the years of turmoil this organization - and we as fans - have endured.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'm sorry Tripp but I have to really rip you for saying it's the same front office, because that makes no sense. Is it the same scouting group, sure. But when people refer to the "front office", they are referring to the person(s) who are ultimately making the player acquisition decisions.

Scouting departments are front office support people, not decision makers. They evaluate the talent. They evaluated it for Cerrato and now the evaluate the talent for Shanahan. But that's a huge delineation.

Shanahan, his son, and Haslett are defining and communicating the type of players they are looking for, while Campbell and his team go find them. In the past, Campbell and his team would go find them, and Vinny would end up picking whoever he thought would work best for Zorn.

But Vinny and Zorn weren't communicating, and it's clear in this article that Campbell was saying he wasn't getting much in the way of direction from the decision makers at the top. So it's no wonder Vinny went with the BPA strategy when he was in charge - the communication was so poor between coach, GM, and scouts that he didn't even adequately grasp what the team needed.

Scouts are only as good as the decision makers they support. You can provide all the quality analysis in the world, but if the decision makers can't communicate well enough to put the analysis to good use, then shitty decisions get made.

I think with the way Shanahan is making better use of Campbell's abilities, it bodes well for improved drafting and team composition going forward.

I agree with this post. Also one more thing to celebrate about Cerrato's departure.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'm sorry Tripp but I have to really rip you for saying it's the same front office, because that makes no sense. Is it the same scouting group, sure. But when people refer to the "front office", they are referring to the person(s) who are ultimately making the player acquisition decisions.

Scouting departments are front office support people, not decision makers. They evaluate the talent. They evaluated it for Cerrato and now the evaluate the talent for Shanahan. But that's a huge delineation.

Shanahan, his son, and Haslett are defining and communicating the type of players they are looking for, while Campbell and his team go find them. In the past, Campbell and his team would go find them, and Vinny would end up picking whoever he thought would work best for Zorn.

But Vinny and Zorn weren't communicating, and it's clear in this article that Campbell was saying he wasn't getting much in the way of direction from the decision makers at the top. So it's no wonder Vinny went with the BPA strategy when he was in charge - the communication was so poor between coach, GM, and scouts that he didn't even adequately grasp what the team needed.

Scouts are only as good as the decision makers they support. You can provide all the quality analysis in the world, but if the decision makers can't communicate well enough to put the analysis to good use, then shitty decisions get made.

I think with the way Shanahan is making better use of Campbell's abilities, it bodes well for improved drafting and team composition going forward.

It takes a tedious massaging of logic to say solid process is there without solid results. We know it's a different process now. Nobody, period, "knows" it's a better process.

Our current status is still early in the rebuilding process. Arguably, it's no further along than the day Mike became coach. It appears we're still searching for a quality, dependable left tackle. The WR corp is still unimpressive. The defensive secondary still underperforms.

Similarities between prior to Mike v now...solid defensive front seven. Top TE talent. Low-threat passing game.

Biggest difference between then and now: a QB who can manage most games and win a couple/few over a season.

So to recap: our defense is not quite as good as before Mike but basically the same; our passing attack is still pretty harmless; our running game is marginally better; but most importantly we threw out Jason Campbell and didn't do anything whatsoever at QB for two full seasons.

If Mike and Kyle "find" their QB now we'll never know how close they were to total failure. If they don't find their QB now we'll be about 5-11 again, and the process argument should be long over.

[Brody81]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'm sorry Tripp but I have to really rip you for saying it's the same front office, because that makes no sense. Is it the same scouting group, sure. But when people refer to the "front office", they are referring to the person(s) who are ultimately making the player acquisition decisions.

Scouting departments are front office support people, not decision makers. They evaluate the talent. They evaluated it for Cerrato and now the evaluate the talent for Shanahan. But that's a huge delineation.

Shanahan, his son, and Haslett are defining and communicating the type of players they are looking for, while Campbell and his team go find them. In the past, Campbell and his team would go find them, and Vinny would end up picking whoever he thought would work best for Zorn.

But Vinny and Zorn weren't communicating, and it's clear in this article that Campbell was saying he wasn't getting much in the way of direction from the decision makers at the top. So it's no wonder Vinny went with the BPA strategy when he was in charge - the communication was so poor between coach, GM, and scouts that he didn't even adequately grasp what the team needed.

Scouts are only as good as the decision makers they support. You can provide all the quality analysis in the world, but if the decision makers can't communicate well enough to put the analysis to good use, then shitty decisions get made.

I think with the way Shanahan is making better use of Campbell's abilities, it bodes well for improved drafting and team composition going forward.

This ^... Tripp is a hater!

[SmootSmack]

There are different scouts, but that's not all that uncommon.

Scott's work fell on deaf ears under the past regime. If it hadn't, we would have taken Jordy Nelson instead of Devin Thomas and not taken Malcolm Kelly.

There's much more collaboration now, ultimately it's Mike Shanahan's call. But the open dialogue is positive.

[NC_Skins]

Awesome read and thanks for sharing!


Man it feels great to have a credible guy at the helm.

[Gmanc711]

This is why I really hope, even if we have a mediocre year next year, that we do give Shanahan the full five years. I mean if we have 4 wins again, then maybe we need to assess it further, but I think top to bottom the direction of this team is so much better than it was before he got here. It's really crazy to see just how messed up the whole thing was. There are some types of things I dont totally agree with Shanahan on, but I dont think you can dispute that the franchise is not in a much better spot than it was after 2009.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think they've been doing stuff differently, but we're talking about the same guys here.

Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown are well-respected personnel guys, but they were well-respected personnel guys when Cerrato called the shots. It's the same guys, the same front office. Having a different way of doing things can be refreshing, or it can just be a different means to the same end.

If people are waiting for me to rip Scott Campbell for peeling back the curtain a bit as to how the Redskins run things now as opposed to before, that's just not someplace I'm going to go. The Redskins draft record under Cerrato in the first couple of rounds always suggested our scouts were as thorough as anyone elses.
I don't deny that it's still the case, and I'm glad Rich Campbell was able to give us a little bit of a look at the Redskins front office. But it's the same front office. It really is. It's year, what, six? Seven? Eight? It's clear to me Shanahan has changed a couple things here and there since mid-season when the heat got turned up on him, but the only thing we can do hoping that things are better now is to wait for it and hope. Because things clearly are not changing before the 2012 draft: we're sticking with the current course for one more year.

It's not that I was waiting for you to rip Campbell. I was waiting to hear how Cerrato wasn't really all that bad and that Shanahan is just doing the same thing.

It's the same guys. I am no insider and even I had heard how the Skins scouts were a solid to good group as scouts go. From Campbell's statements, however, it seems to me that the lines of communication are much better between Shanahan and the scouts than it ever was between Cerrato and the scouts. Again, I am just a simple minded fan, but, better communication seems like a good thing.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

It's not that I was waiting for you to rip Campbell. I was waiting to hear how Cerrato wasn't really all that bad and that Shanahan is just doing the same thing.

It's the same guys. I am no insider and even I had heard how the Skins scouts were a solid to good group as scouts go. From Campbell's statements, however, it seems to me that the lines of communication are much better between Shanahan and the scouts than it ever was between Cerrato and the scouts. Again, I am just a simple minded fan, but, better communication seems like a good thing.

Meh. People get weak in the knees when you compare Shanahan and Cerrato.

I just want to make it clear I don't have anything bad to say about the clear lines of communication between GM/Coach and personnel department. I don't really think it's notable though, and am anticipating the fact that I don't think it's newsworthy being construed as being negative. To be quite frank about it, when Cerrato was in charge, you just kind of assumed that there was open communication with the coaching staff and personnel department because it's kind of shocking that you could have drafted as much talent as Vinny did without that communication. That people in any organization would feel marginalized is a fact of life, but that high ranking people would be among the marginalized would never even have crossed my mind.

[IrMitchell]

Terrific read, Shanny is perfect when it comes to off the field. On the field... well, ya..

[Dirtbag59]

So if I'm reading this right it was never really that the scouts under Vinny were bad, but rather they were being held back by Vinny's emphasis on certain positions and giving up draft picks way to easily.

Anyway this article pretty much seals it. The front office is dedicated to building through the draft and building a team much like the Steelers and Patriots. I doubt they trade up for a QB come April.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

So if I'm reading this right it was never really that the scouts under Vinny were bad, but rather they were being held back by Vinny's emphasis on certain positions and giving up draft picks way to easily.

Anyway this article pretty much seals it. The front office is dedicated to building through the draft and building a team much like the Steelers and Patriots. I doubt they trade up for a QB come April.

Well, given the fact that our woes are moreso due to not having a lot of picks rather than sucking at actual drafting, this should have been obvious years ago.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

So if I'm reading this right it was never really that the scouts under Vinny were bad, but rather they were being held back by Vinny's emphasis on certain positions and giving up draft picks way to easily.

Anyway this article pretty much seals it. The front office is dedicated to building through the draft and building a team much like the Steelers and Patriots. I doubt they trade up for a QB come April.

None of what I am going to write is meant to be a defense of Vinny Cerrato.

But remember how in history we are taught that the people who get to write history are the victors/people in power?

If in three years we're reading very well written insider pieces on how much of an organizational disaster Mike Shanahan was and how he limited Raheem Morris and Chris Forester from helping players reach their true potential and how much better of a person and football coach Jon Gruden is, just remember that the history is written by the people in power, and typically at the expense of the disposed.

And if we're not, I am quite happy that Mike Shanahan against all odds got this team to the playoffs.