All things offseason discussion part II

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Well the point is the awards are already given on the field determined in competition and then individual awards are giving by the league. I heard Drake was funny though...

I hear ya, in the end it's just about entertainment and a chance for the industry to pat itself on the back, like any other award show.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Gary84Clark

Rae Carruth was tragic but they reached the Super Bowl since then. This Steve Smith curse is gonna bring them down. If they lose Greg Hardy for important games etc. Then I know the Steve Smith curse is real. He means too much to the Panthers for them to dump him like that. You don't replace Steve Smith with Avant and Cotchery.

True, Carolina has alot of problems along that O-line too. They are going to have a tough time this year. I think Tampa could surprise in that division and New Orleans is still the team to beat, I think Atlanta could bounce back a lil, but not enough to make the playoffs.

[Gary84Clark]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

True, Carolina has alot of problems along that O-line too. They are going to have a tough time this year. I think Tampa could surprise in that division and New Orleans is still the team to beat, I think Atlanta could bounce back a lil, but not enough to make the playoffs.

I can't believe Gettlmen their GM is starting this season with a question at left tackle. Even Vinny is not that stupid. If you don;t have a left tackle that is your first pick. He picked a receiver a classic mistake.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Well the point is the awards are already given on the field determined in competition and then individual awards are giving by the league. I heard Drake was funny though...

Espys are the best of the best awards though. Championships are determined and awarded on the field - yes. Which championship was most heartfelt or deserved of special recognition is determined by the espys. I have no problem with it. That being said I never watch them.

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

The Redskins have a habit of letting good talent walk because they're not 'elite'. That's how you end up with guys like Reed Doughty, Josh Wilson, and Rob Jackson as starters.

There's no point in letting well above average, home grown talent walk when you have nothing better(at this point in time) to replace it. Is saving some money really worth downgrading an already terrible defense?

Hrm... i'm not sure how much I believe the idea that the redskins have a habit of letting good talent walk because they're not elite... over the last 10 years talent has walked for a variety of reasons, I don't recall any of them being because the team didn't think they were good enough.

I do recall it being because the player had a gripe with the fans, or the organization. Or because the player's wife had an issue with a certain mistress in the area. Or because the FO thought some top-dollar free agent that was past his prime would be a better person to pick up.

I also recall the FO having a history of completely avoiding the process of acquiring young, raw talent and developing it.

The elite teams let players that want too much money walk all the time. They also have a system in place that grooms young, raw talent players so that when a person needs to be let go because of their contract demands there is someone ready to step into place. They also have a solid roster all the way around that affords them the ability to look at any one single player and say "We can win without you." (minus QB and in a few rare cases another skill position.)

The redskins have not had that since Gibbs 1. If letting Orakpo walk is such a bad idea it's only a bad idea because Redskins have yet again failed to bring in a young player and groom them for eventually taking over the position, forcing them into having to decide between way over paying a player or running with a significantly lower-potential person. Par for the course. I'm hopping Allen's #1 priority is to change that about the team, but it's his first year in total control so it's far to early to expect that right now.

And you guys can cite the rush stats as Orakpo being held back - but he's had opportunities to make plays and more often than not he fails, for whatever reason. I'm absolutely willing to concede that he's been used wrong - we've been a square peg/round hole organization for a while now (another thing I hope Allen fixes.) But you just flat out don't see players blossom this late in their career very often, so I remain skeptical that he's going to put on the performance worth the money he is demanding.

This isn't an issue of the team not keeping 'home grown' talent. It's an issue of over paying for a guy or not, and the fact that we don't have a process in place that leaves us very many options via younger players that have been groomed.

[Defensewins]

Good post tshile. I agree with you. The NFL is not littered with former Redskins that are playing at a high level for other teams.
The consistently good teams do let a certain % of FA players go if they are asking for big $. Salary Cap is the worst thing ever created.
Our bigger problem in the past has been weak FO, poor drafts/player evaluation (including FA's) and poor player development (coaching/mentoring). We are miles ahead of where we were with Vinny Ceratto/Dan Snyder GM duo. But we need to keep improving.

[SirLK26]

So which is better:

A: to slightly overpay a player whose play has suggested he can put up elite stats but hasn't yet been given an opportunity by the coaches to do so, or...

B: let said player walk, keeping in mind there are no viable options to replace him.

[tshile]

Originally Posted by SirLK26

So which is better:

A: to slightly overpay a player whose play has suggested he can put up elite stats but hasn't yet been given an opportunity by the coaches to do so, or...

B: let said player walk, keeping in mind there are no viable options to replace him.

i do not agree with your summation with A.

but, to speak to the spirit of your post...

if the options are overpay for a guy because you have no other option, or have a system that allows you to let players walk when they want more than your worth.... give me the later every day of the week.

the fact that the redskins have had a history of being in the former and (to me) seem to be trying to get away from that and become a team that has young talent they groom, does not mean we should abandon the current movement to go back to the old way of doing business because... well... this year we just really need to do it that old way because we have this really good list of justifications...

no. enough with the crappy business model. i get that it sells jerseys and puts butts in seats but have we honestly not had enough of that being the #1 driver of decisions?

it seems to me that the best interest of the organization is to move away from over paying a few guys and move to the other side of the spectrum. i fail to see how overpaying for orakpo does anything other than continue down a path we've been going down since 1999.

a path i thought everyone agreed was a dead end and what took a once proud franchise and made it an annual laughing stock.

[punch it in]

I think it was Chico that mentioned that quite simply....rak has a year to prove he is elite. If he does than pay him. If he doesnt than let nature take its course.

[SirLK26]

I'm having a hard time thinking of any times in the past when we've overpayed our own free agents(I haven't been a fan as long as most of you, so perhaps my memory just doesn't go back far enough). Overpayed for other teams' free agents, yes. Let our own good players walk, yes.

But paying Orakpo, or any others we've drafted and developed, is very different from paying another teams' free agent, and I don't think it follows that "crappy business model" mentioned. It's not nearly as much of a gamble, for one thing.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by tshile

Hrm... i'm not sure how much I believe the idea that the redskins have a habit of letting good talent walk because they're not elite... over the last 10 years talent has walked for a variety of reasons, I don't recall any of them being because the team didn't think they were good enough.

LaRon Landry, Carlos Rogers, and Antonio Pierce. As far as I can remember, the team did not feel they were worth what they were asking for. I'm not claiming any of them are all stars, but each of them was replaced with players worse than them.

The situation with each of those guys feels eerily similar to the current situation with Orakpo. Lukewarm fan response and local media outlets downplaying his contributions. It's pretty obvious when this team is preparing the fanbase for someone to be gone.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by tshile

enough with the crappy business model. i get that it sells jerseys and puts butts in seats but have we honestly not had enough of that being the #1 driver of decisions?

If the new business model is not paying anyone, good luck attracting or holding on to talent.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

LaRon Landry, Carlos Rogers, and Antonio Pierce. As far as I can remember, the team did not feel they were worth what they were asking for. I'm not claiming any of them are all stars, but each of them was replaced with players worse than them.

The situation with each of those guys feels eerily similar to the current situation with Orakpo. Lukewarm fan response and local media outlets downplaying his contributions. It's pretty obvious when this team is preparing the fanbase for someone to be gone.

Landry was hurt all the time and Rogers if I remembered correctly wanted out at all costs. Pierce was a huge mistake imo.

[MTK]

Pierce got more up front $$ from the Giants, but it's not like the Skins didn't make an effort to keep him.

[SirLK26]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

If the new business model is not paying anyone, good luck attracting or holding on to talent.

Agreed. There's something to be said for showing your own some love.

Originally Posted by punch it in

Landry was hurt all the time and Rogers if I remembered correctly wanted out at all costs. Pierce was a huge mistake imo.

Don't forget Ryan Clark, another mistake.