Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Is anyone looking at this from their point of view? In the 9/11 attacks we lose 2,819 people (New York Magazine. In Iraq, over the course of this war they've lost between 56,023 and 61,736 civilians. I'm sorry if this sounds brash, but we've been damn lucky that a) 9/11 only killed 2,819 people, and that attacks like that don't happen on a more regular basis. 9/11 happens in these countries every couple months, and often we're involved in some way. I don't think it takes rocket science to see why these people hate us. Most of them were living their lives, and yes Saddam wasn't a great ruler by any stretch, but most families weren't losing children, mothers, and fathers from a bomb that goes off course or the escalated violence in the area, this is why they hate us. Their towns are in ruins, many of their family members are dead, and we are directly responsible.

How would you guys support it if, lets say... France, decided that George W. Bush was a dictator and not fit to run the country. The first thing they do is bomb the shit out of our infrastructure. Goodbye power grid, goodbye bridges, cut the fiber-optic backbones going into the country (much like we did in Iraq), kill the telephone lines. Then bomb military outposts. You'd be enraged, a violation of our 'civil rights'. I guess at some point, we need to stop forcing our ways on others. We're the world's Jehovah's witnesses, going door to door, uninvited, and pushing our agenda on someone else.

Then people bitch about car bombs, etc. It's how you win when you're undermanned. They can't just gear up and fight us, they'd get crushed. If we want to go rolling into war, especially with groups instead of sovereign states, we need to expect guerrilla warfare. It's the only effective means for people to fight back, and we can't start a war and expect everyone to drop their weapons and convert to us.

This isn't meant to offend anyone, I'm just asking you to step back from being an American, and put yourself in someone else's shoes. 9/11 was a tragedy, but the loss of human life wasn't near what many countries see on a regular basis. We've been extremely lucky with thwarting such attacks, and in my opinion, pissing more people off isn't the best way to stop them. Many experts say that the Iraq war has done little but breed more terrorists.

Are you kidding? Iraqis WEREN'T losing their families under Saddam? Wow. He killed about half a million of his OWN people under his rule. We've found mass graves with 3,000 or more people thrown into one hole, much like Nazi Germany's burial and murder methods. He used chemical weapons on his own people. He had rape rooms and torture chambers that he would pick random people to give a horrible death to for doing nothing more than walking by one of his palaces at the wrong time or for saying something he didn't like. His sons would rape random women and send a video of it to the hushand/father/etc. He'd kill fathers while their families were forced to watch. We've found videos that compiled the way he murdered his citizens, by cutting off limbs, to burning them, to throwing them off of buildings with weight attached to them. He was AS BAD as Hitler, Stalin or Mussolini...he was just stopped before his death toll reached the millions. He even sent oil to Jacques Chirac and the UN in exchange for money for food to supply his people with. Good man, right? No, he used their food money to stock up warehouse upon warehouse with weapons. We've secured and destroyed most of these, but when we were on the way in to attack him, he removed guards and left these warehouses wide open, which is how these "insurgents" got most of their weapons and ammo to use on our troops. (from Gen. Tommy Franks' book)

If you listen to our troops and NON-BIASED sources, the far majority of Iraqi people are happy that our troops removed Saddam. They're thankful and run to the streets to thank them. Of the 19 provinces in Iraq, 16 are operating with no problems...the violence we hear about every day is in just 3 areas, one being Baghdad. We've set up infracstructures they've never had before like running water and electricity throughout the country. For the first time ever, Iraqi girls and women can attend school. We've build hospitals.

There is a giant difference between the USA and a lot of other nations who get involved in wars. We go to war for 2 main reasons:
1. In retaliation or self-defense. (ex: Pearl Harbor, 09/11/01)
2. To free those living under dictators or corrupt governments.

We never attack anyone without them doing something to deserve or and without it being neccessary. Sometimes I think we're TOO diplomatic and waste precious time. An example of that would be with Osama bin Laden. He attacked us throughout the 90s on a near-annual basis. We should've sent him to see his 72 virgins after the first attack in 1993.

Removing my American status and looking at it, I still could not come to understand people who kill their own people or kill their neighbors just because they don't attend the same mosque as me or don't have the same skin color. I could not take the side of a country who attacks other nations without being attacked first, no matter what economic or social conditions are present in my country.

You can't negotiate with people who want you dead and actually have a verse in their Quran that says you can lie to any non-Muslim in order to trick them into trusting you so that you can kill them.

Their news media (and gaining control of OUR media) will try to get you to be sympathetic towards them, but while you're standing back feeling sorry for you, they'll sneak up behind you and blow you up. It's exactly what they want, our general public to feel sorry for them and for our media to affect our politics...to weaken our government's ability to defeat them.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Buster

Are you kidding? Iraqis WEREN'T losing their families under Saddam? Wow. He killed about half a million of his OWN people under his rule. We've found mass graves with 3,000 or more people thrown into one hole, much like Nazi Germany's burial and murder methods. He used chemical weapons on his own people. He had rape rooms and torture chambers that he would pick random people to give a horrible death to for doing nothing more than walking by one of his palaces at the wrong time or for saying something he didn't like. His sons would rape random women and send a video of it to the hushand/father/etc. He'd kill fathers while their families were forced to watch. We've found videos that compiled the way he murdered his citizens, by cutting off limbs, to burning them, to throwing them off of buildings with weight attached to them. He was AS BAD as Hitler, Stalin or Mussolini...he was just stopped before his death toll reached the millions. He even sent oil to Jacques Chirac and the UN in exchange for money for food to supply his people with. Good man, right? No, he used their food money to stock up warehouse upon warehouse with weapons. We've secured and destroyed most of these, but when we were on the way in to attack him, he removed guards and left these warehouses wide open, which is how these "insurgents" got most of their weapons and ammo to use on our troops. (from Gen. Tommy Franks' book)

If you listen to our troops and NON-BIASED sources, the far majority of Iraqi people are happy that our troops removed Saddam. They're thankful and run to the streets to thank them. Of the 19 provinces in Iraq, 16 are operating with no problems...the violence we hear about every day is in just 3 areas, one being Baghdad. We've set up infracstructures they've never had before like running water and electricity throughout the country. For the first time ever, Iraqi girls and women can attend school. We've build hospitals.

There is a giant difference between the USA and a lot of other nations who get involved in wars. We go to war for 2 main reasons:
1. In retaliation or self-defense. (ex: Pearl Harbor, 09/11/01)
2. To free those living under dictators or corrupt governments.

We never attack anyone without them doing something to deserve or and without it being neccessary. Sometimes I think we're TOO diplomatic and waste precious time. An example of that would be with Osama bin Laden. He attacked us throughout the 90s on a near-annual basis. We should've sent him to see his 72 virgins after the first attack in 1993.

Removing my American status and looking at it, I still could not come to understand people who kill their own people or kill their neighbors just because they don't attend the same mosque as me or don't have the same skin color. I could not take the side of a country who attacks other nations without being attacked first, no matter what economic or social conditions are present in my country.

You can't negotiate with people who want you dead and actually have a verse in their Quran that says you can lie to any non-Muslim in order to trick them into trusting you so that you can kill them.

Their news media (and gaining control of OUR media) will try to get you to be sympathetic towards them, but while you're standing back feeling sorry for you, they'll sneak up behind you and blow you up. It's exactly what they want, our general public to feel sorry for them and for our media to affect our politics...to weaken our government's ability to defeat them.

You know its funny how we never hear anything postive that goes on over there and it must be for a reason (left wing media and make Bush look bad at any cost). I have talked to several people that have been over there and I also talk to my daughters boy friend who enlisted a year ago to go and fight (not sure if I would have done this). He calls from Iraq and its kind of weird talking to someone as they are there. He says alot of positive stuff happens day in and day out all over the place and most of the troops are ticked at the media for only reporting the bad. He also says that most think that all the negative press only encorages the insurgants that what their doing is working and if they keep it up the US people will grow tired and we will leave.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

You know its funny how we never hear anything postive that goes on over there and it must be for a reason (left wing media and make Bush look bad at any cost). I have talked to several people that have been over there and I also talk to my daughters boy friend who enlisted a year ago to go and fight (not sure if I would have done this). He calls from Iraq and its kind of weird talking to someone as they are there. He says alot of positive stuff happens day in and day out all over the place and most of the troops are ticked at the media for only reporting the bad. He also says that most think that all the negative press only encorages the insurgants that what their doing is working and if they keep it up the US people will grow tired and we will leave.

It's amazing the power our media has. Once you get behind the scenes a little, the picture changes.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by Buster

We go to war for 2 main reasons:
1. In retaliation or self-defense. (ex: Pearl Harbor, 09/11/01)
2. To free those living under dictators or corrupt governments.

We go to war for 1 reason: to ensure our domination over the rest of the world. To ensure that we remain the ONLY superpower. We don't go to war for anyone but ourselves -- and that is the way it should be, barring genocide.

Originally Posted by Buster

I could not take the side of a country who attacks other nations without being attacked first, no matter what economic or social conditions are present in my country.

America attacked Iraq without being attacked first. I think you probably meant to word that differently. I think I understand what you mean.

[redsk1]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Is anyone looking at this from their point of view? In the 9/11 attacks we lose 2,819 people (New York Magazine. In Iraq, over the course of this war they've lost between 56,023 and 61,736 civilians. I'm sorry if this sounds brash, but we've been damn lucky that a) 9/11 only killed 2,819 people, and that attacks like that don't happen on a more regular basis. 9/11 happens in these countries every couple months, and often we're involved in some way. I don't think it takes rocket science to see why these people hate us. Most of them were living their lives, and yes Saddam wasn't a great ruler by any stretch, but most families weren't losing children, mothers, and fathers from a bomb that goes off course or the escalated violence in the area, this is why they hate us. Their towns are in ruins, many of their family members are dead, and we are directly responsible.

How would you guys support it if, lets say... France, decided that George W. Bush was a dictator and not fit to run the country. The first thing they do is bomb the shit out of our infrastructure. Goodbye power grid, goodbye bridges, cut the fiber-optic backbones going into the country (much like we did in Iraq), kill the telephone lines. Then bomb military outposts. You'd be enraged, a violation of our 'civil rights'. I guess at some point, we need to stop forcing our ways on others. We're the world's Jehovah's witnesses, going door to door, uninvited, and pushing our agenda on someone else.

Then people bitch about car bombs, etc. It's how you win when you're undermanned. They can't just gear up and fight us, they'd get crushed. If we want to go rolling into war, especially with groups instead of sovereign states, we need to expect guerrilla warfare. It's the only effective means for people to fight back, and we can't start a war and expect everyone to drop their weapons and convert to us.

This isn't meant to offend anyone, I'm just asking you to step back from being an American, and put yourself in someone else's shoes. 9/11 was a tragedy, but the loss of human life wasn't near what many countries see on a regular basis. We've been extremely lucky with thwarting such attacks, and in my opinion, pissing more people off isn't the best way to stop them. Many experts say that the Iraq war has done little but breed more terrorists.

Saddam did kill hundreds of thousands of people if i'm not mistaken. But yes, the country was more "stable" under his rule. We are in a no-win situation now, regardless if we stay or leave.

[Daseal]

Buster, does that mean America helped kill Americans? We dismantled our F-14 Tomcat jets. Guess where we ended up selling the parts to? Whoops? Maybe we should do our homework and stop selling fighter jets to Iran?
Lawmaker says Pentagon's suspension of F-14 part sales falls short - USATODAY.com

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Buster, does that mean America helped kill Americans? We dismantled our F-14 Tomcat jets. Guess where we ended up selling the parts to? Whoops? Maybe we should do our homework and stop selling fighter jets to Iran?
Lawmaker says Pentagon's suspension of F-14 part sales falls short - USATODAY.com

You need to read the entire article they some how left the most important part for the very end of the article.

The U.S. military retired its F-14s last fall, and decided to destroy at least 10,000 parts it considers unique to the Tomcat.
It had planned to sell about 60% of the roughly 76,000 parts for the F-14, considering them general aircraft hardware it was safe to sell without restrictions.
The Pentagon says it has to balance national security concerns with its mandate to recoup costs by selling leftover gear when it can. It maintains it has followed proper procedures in selling surplus, including those instances where equipment was acquired by buyers for Iran and China.
Copyright
So its just general parts which some could purchase and then sell to Iran but again it sounds to me that they are parts that they could buy anyway from other sources.

[dmek25]

i am for what is best for the American people. and i do not want our government lying to me about their hidden agendas. to me, how we got to Iraq is sometimes the bigger story then what we are going to do now. bush should have taken care of bin laden, first and foremost. then he could have ventured into Iraq looking like a king. now he looks like a discombobulated fool

[dmek25]

does anyone really believe anything this administration says?

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by dmek25

does anyone really believe anything this administration says?

I guess you going back to WMD's?

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by dmek25

does anyone really believe anything this administration says?

I may not believe word for word what any administration says but I generally feel that the overall message is basically truthful. When you see that a particular person is a threat or even has a potential to threaten you, you will be inclined to generate whatever support you can to prevent that person from harming you. If it means stretching and even regrettably fabricating data to increase the support, I guess I'm all for it. I have no idea what motivations, if any, Hussein had that were going to intentionally harm the US. I trust our governnment regardless if it's Clinton or Bush or whoever to deal with it as they deem necessary. If they play by the rules and win, YAY. If they have to distort or twist the rosy colored lenses abit, oh well. The job got done or is getting done and that's all I'm concerned with.

As far as the media only representing one side of the situation over there, well DUH! No one reads the papers or watches CNN for "feel good stories". If they do, it's just for a momentary change of pace.

[dmek25]

the link between Al quada and Saddam Hussein? the list goes on and on

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by dmek25

the link between Al quada and Saddam Hussein? the list goes on and on

The link was made between the two its how much they worked together if they did at all is what is not known. WMD's was thought by most major nations, UN, Congress, Bill Clinton, so I guess they all lied to us. I like how the Democrates in congress said the same thing and had access to the same information but now blame it all on the Bush administration.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by firstdown

The link was made between the two its how much they worked together if they did at all is what is not known. WMD's was thought by most major nations, UN, Congress, Bill Clinton, so I guess they all lied to us. I like how the Democrates in congress said the same thing and had access to the same information but now blame it all on the Bush administration.

i think its hysterical that everything that is wrong with America is always, somehow bill Clinton's fault. and the demos had the same info, but the difference is now that they realize they were wrong, they are trying to fix it. not being a cement head, like bush, and refusing to take blame, admitting mistakes, and trying to fix the problem

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i think its hysterical that everything that is wrong with America is always, somehow bill Clinton's fault. and the demos had the same info, but the difference is now that they realize they were wrong, they are trying to fix it. not being a cement head, like bush, and refusing to take blame, admitting mistakes, and trying to fix the problem

We have no idea right now whether or not the decisions the Bush Administration are making are helping to fix or hindering the progress of the country. That's 100% media factor. I could say right now that Mario Williams' legacy is one of failure, but we've yet to see the effects that his career will have on the Houston Texans and the NFL. History isn't defined over short period.

What we can tell is this; the decisions made by our administrations of the past have created the situation of the present. It would be foolish to blame it all on Clinton or all on Bush Sr. The effects we are dealing with now are comprised of many, many, many decisions going back past Reagan, past Carter, past LBJ, even to the FDR days. It's impossible to fault individuals for these decisions. No one man has the wisdom to look 20-50 years into the future to see the long term consequences of their actions.

This mess was created by past figures and the Bush Administration isn't solely responsible for cleaning it up. Another administration will take over in 2 years and this middle east issue will still be an issue.

Maybe 20 years from now, we will be able to see if Bush started the process of fixing the middle east, or if he indeed mucked up the situation even further. Don't be foolish enough to think we will know by today, tomorrow, or the next day, and espicially don't be foolish enough to think we already know. We are human beings, not prophets.