The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.

[jsarno]

We keep talking about Mix, but he didn't even do anything for the Giants, nor did he make the field for us when we had all sorts of WR issues.
I love Mix too, but we could easily use a guy like Monk especially considering we are likely losing Caldwell and McCardell. I think this kid is something special, and we could have him for pretty cheap.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by jsarno

We keep talking about Mix, but he didn't even do anything for the Giants, nor did he make the field for us when we had all sorts of WR issues.
I love Mix too, but we could easily use a guy like Monk especially considering we are likely losing Caldwell and McCardell. I think this kid is something special, and we could have him for pretty cheap.

Mix didn't do anything for the Giants because he's an X-receiver and was behind Plax. The Giants were prepared to start Mix the week of 9/23 or 9/30 if Plax couldn't go, so I would say they had confidence in him.
NFL DRAFT BIBLE: Sep 23, 2007

He probably wasn't on the field for us because Saunders didn't have confidence he would be able to pick up the 700 page playbook in mid-season. I thought he should've had a shot inside the 10 for a fade or two, I wanted to see if he'd make a play, but that never happened. The TB game comes to mind when JC is throwing a fade to a 5' 10" Moss and 6' 5" Mix is on the bench, made no sense to me.

The two videos on Monk don't really show me anything. In the one from Dirtbag359 he totally mis-times his jump, never actually jumps, and the ball happens to fall into his hands. In yours he has no separation, the DB is turned around and falls down (Gotta love those SC DBs). He appears to have decent enough hands to make those catches, but nothing in those videos screams "We need to get this guy!" Monk may not be drafted, if not bring him in and take a look. I just don't think we need to draft a WR unless we get outstanding value. We have too many other issues to address.

I don't think Mix is the next TO, his college performance doesn't indicate that. But he's already on the roster, is a big, fast, physical receiver, and could develop into a solid "X". Worst case he should be a threat on the outside in the Red Zone.

At WR we currently have: Moss, ARE, Caldwell (if we let him get away it's for a reason), Mix, Espy, Harris, Mann, McMullen, McCardell (probably will not be here), Toler, and Thrash. For the sake of argument let's say the Skins sign Hackett. Our top three would be Moss, ARE, Hackett. We will probably only carry 5 WRs on the active roster so realistically Mix, Espy, McMullen, Thrash and Caldwell are competing for two active roster spots. Where would Monk fit? Who would you cut to make room? I definitely don't cut Caldwell, Mix or Espy.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Mix didn't do anything for the Giants because he's an X-receiver and was behind Plax. The Giants were prepared to start Mix the week of 9/23 or 9/30 if Plax couldn't go, so I would say they had confidence in him.
NFL DRAFT BIBLE: Sep 23, 2007

He probably wasn't on the field for us because Saunders didn't have confidence he would be able to pick up the 700 page playbook in mid-season. I thought he should've had a shot inside the 10 for a fade or two, I wanted to see if he'd make a play, but that never happened. The TB game comes to mind when JC is throwing a fade to a 5' 10" Moss and 6' 5" Mix is on the bench, made no sense to me.

The two videos on Monk don't really show me anything. In the one from Dirtbag359 he totally mis-times his jump, never actually jumps, and the ball happens to fall into his hands. In yours he has no separation, the DB is turned around and falls down (Gotta love those SC DBs). He appears to have decent enough hands to make those catches, but nothing in those videos screams "We need to get this guy!" Monk may not be drafted, if not bring him in and take a look. I just don't think we need to draft a WR unless we get outstanding value. We have too many other issues to address.

I don't think Mix is the next TO, his college performance doesn't indicate that. But he's already on the roster, is a big, fast, physical receiver, and could develop into a solid "X". Worst case he should be a threat on the outside in the Red Zone.

At WR we currently have: Moss, ARE, Caldwell (if we let him get away it's for a reason), Mix, Espy, Harris, Mann, McMullen, McCardell (probably will not be here), Toler, and Thrash. For the sake of argument let's say the Skins sign Hackett. Our top three would be Moss, ARE, Hackett. We will probably only carry 5 WRs on the active roster so realistically Mix, Espy, McMullen, Thrash and Caldwell are competing for two active roster spots. Where would Monk fit? Who would you cut to make room? I definitely don't cut Caldwell, Mix or Espy.

You make valid points, however:
Until we sign Caldwell and McCardell (both FA's) I am not counting them on this team. So at the moment, we have Moss, ARE and then no one with experience other than the noticably spent Thrash (who could be kept solely for special teams). I want to keep Mix and work him, but it doesn't appear the Skins are high on him. Please don't act as if the Giants were high on him either. Plax was an injury issue all season, and they RELEASED Mix to sign Domenik Dixon! That doesn't sound like a team that is "confident" in a player. You speak of the 700 page playbook, yet McCardell came in his first week and started being an impact. So they could have played Mix if they wanted to, yet chose not to. We as fans think too highly of the bench players on our team and always think they will be something special. Well, in certain cases, sure I understand, but it's like this with all our guys. I really want Mix to be involved in the passing game this year, he has the size and the chemistry to work out, but I'm not a Redskins coach. Espy has a long way to go before he makes any impact for anyone, if he does at all.
I've heard people say we have pressing needs at other positions, and we certainly do...I agree. However, getting a big WR with good hands and something to prove in the 5th round is hardly ignoring other positions of need. Being able to get a guy in a position of need in the later rounds is a good idea, and wr is not a "pressing need" but it certainly is a need with the band of misfits we currently have.
Now, if before the draft comes, we sign Hackett / Caldwell and McCardell (like you seem to be suggesting) then we certainly won't look to bring in another WR. But if we do that, do you really think Mix will find the field very often?

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by jsarno

....I want to keep Mix and work him, but it doesn't appear the Skins are high on him. Please don't act as if the Giants were high on him either. Plax was an injury issue all season, and they RELEASED Mix to sign Domenik Dixon! That doesn't sound like a team that is "confident" in a player. You speak of the 700 page playbook, yet McCardell came in his first week and started being an impact. So they could have played Mix if they wanted to, yet chose not to. We as fans think too highly of the bench players on our team and always think they will be something special. Well, in certain cases, sure I understand, but it's like this with all our guys.....I've heard people say we have pressing needs at other positions, and we certainly do...I agree. However, getting a big WR with good hands and something to prove in the 5th round is hardly ignoring other positions of need. Being able to get a guy in a position of need in the later rounds is a good idea, and wr is not a "pressing need" but it certainly is a need with the band of misfits we currently have.
Now, if before the draft comes, we sign Hackett / Caldwell and McCardell (like you seem to be suggesting) then we certainly won't look to bring in another WR. But if we do that, do you really think Mix will find the field very often?

Mix was not released, he was waived and on the Giants practice squad and the Skins claimed him. He was waived by the Giants for Domenik Hixon, who is primarily a return specialist. Hixon needed a change of scenery after being involved in the Kevin Everett hit and was productive as a returner for the Giants this year. So it's not like Mix was dumped for someone better at his position. As I said earlier, Mix is limited in that he only plays X (from what I read). Not sure who the Skins had playing X in their offense. If Mix couldn't move around to the slot, or the Z, obviously McCardell (a 15yr. + veteran) would be able to come in and be more effective picking up the playbook and being able to move around to different positions in the offense.

I don't think Mix is necessarily special, but he could fill a need as a Red Zone threat immediately and possibly develop into a solid X receiver. At any rate, my point is that Mix is far ahead of Monk right now and unless Monk can be brought in as a FA we shouldn't waste a draft pick on him. If we don't sign Hackett or B. Johnson, and Caldwell bolts then we have a more pressing need at WR and we will probably look to add one in the 3rd round.

I believe we will sign Hackett, Caldwell will re-up and we'll be fine at WR. The 5-7 round picks need to be used to provide depth on the OL, DL & LB with the best players available, with OL taking priority. We have 30 somethings across the OL and if you can't keep the QB upright it doesn't matter how good your WRs are.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Mix was not released, he was waived and on the Giants practice squad and the Skins claimed him. He was waived by the Giants for Domenik Hixon, who is primarily a return specialist. Hixon needed a change of scenery after being involved in the Kevin Everett hit and was productive as a returner for the Giants this year. So it's not like Mix was dumped for someone better at his position. As I said earlier, Mix is limited in that he only plays X (from what I read). Not sure who the Skins had playing X in their offense. If Mix couldn't move around to the slot, or the Z, obviously McCardell (a 15yr. + veteran) would be able to come in and be more effective picking up the playbook and being able to move around to different positions in the offense.

I don't think Mix is necessarily special, but he could fill a need as a Red Zone threat immediately and possibly develop into a solid X receiver. At any rate, my point is that Mix is far ahead of Monk right now and unless Monk can be brought in as a FA we shouldn't waste a draft pick on him. If we don't sign Hackett or B. Johnson, and Caldwell bolts then we have a more pressing need at WR and we will probably look to add one in the 3rd round.

I believe we will sign Hackett, Caldwell will re-up and we'll be fine at WR. The 5-7 round picks need to be used to provide depth on the OL, DL & LB with the best players available, with OL taking priority. We have 30 somethings across the OL and if you can't keep the QB upright it doesn't matter how good your WRs are.

We're really not far off on our thoughts other than I don't think using a 5th rounder for this kid is wasting a pick.

Regardless if he was waived or released, you don't do that to someone when the WR ahead of him didn't even practice all season. It was painfully obvious they had no real plans for him.

[Redskins_P]

I think Mix has mad potential, but I just don't know how he can be considered a legit #2 receiver when he never played one down on offense.

[jsarno]

Here's another one:

[30gut]

The only way i can see him on the team is with a Free Agent invite.
Dude was hurt last year, he's got good size though
but the injury is a big concern

[30gut]

Hopefully we don't waste an early draft pick on a reciever and look for one of these guys in the 3rd round or later *Warning i don't buy into the 'big' reciever crap, speed is much better than size, Moss and T.O. and Fitz are the exceptional combo of size and speed*

Andre Caldwell, Florida
Height: 6-0. Weight: 204.
Projected 40 Time: 4.36.
Combine 40 Time: 4.37.
Vertical: . Broad .
Projected Round: 2-3.

William Franklin, Missouri
Height: 6-0. Weight: 214.
Projected 40 Time: 4.40.
Combine 40 Time: 4.37.
Vertical: 34.5. Broad .
Projected Round: 3-4.

Jerome Simpson, Coastal Carolina
Height: 6-1. Weight: 190.
Projected 40 Time: 4.46.
Combine 40 Time: 4.37.
Vertical: 37.5. Broad 11-4.
Projected Round: 4.

Dexter Jackson, Appalachian State
Height: 5-9. Weight: 185.
Projected 40 Time: 4.33.
Combine 40 Time: 4.37.
Vertical: . Broad .
Projected Round: 4-5.

*A Local kid*
Arman Shields, Richmond
Height: 6-0. Weight: 194.
Projected 40 Time: 4.44.
Combine 40 Time: 4.44.
Vertical: 37.5. Broad 10.8.
Projected Round: 7.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Hopefully we don't waste an early draft pick on a reciever and look for one of these guys in the 3rd round or later *Warning i don't buy into the 'big' reciever crap, speed is much better than size, Moss and T.O. and Fitz are the exceptional combo of size and speed*

I buy into having a balanced attack. At least one big, physical receiver is a necessary weapon, particularly in the Red Zone. It doesn't matter if we have 4 receivers that run sub-4.5s inside the 20. Their speed is completely negated down there because there is no where to stretch the field.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I buy into having a balanced attack. At least one big, physical receiver is a necessary weapon, particularly in the Red Zone. It doesn't matter if we have 4 receivers that run sub-4.5s inside the 20. Their speed is completely negated down there because there is no where to stretch the field.

Maybe you miss understand what i'm saying. I'm not against 'big' receivers.
But, being 'big' is nothing without speed. At any level of football, especially the NFL speed is essential.

Every team wants a big receiver who is also fast but the reality is that there aren't that many.

Inside the 20 vertical speed is most certainly a weapon. The Post, Skinny Post, Post-Corner, Flag, Go, Out and Up, Seam-Go, Slant are some 'speed' routes ran inside the 20)
-In the Seattle game Randle El scored on a Slant from inside the 10, and Hacket scored on a Seam-Go inside the 20

In the Red Zone speed is still an essential factor in gaining separation from the defender to get open. (separation is not just vertical, but horizontal also)

*Also you don't have to pass to score in the Red Zone. If we must throw to a 'big' receiver we can always split Cooley out wide.

I think people forget the majority of productive receivers in the NFL are under 6'2 and they still seem to score inside the 20 and even inside the 10 (oh my!) and on the goalline.

Bengals- T.J. Housh- 6'1 199
Chad Johnson- 6'1 192
Colts- Gonzalez, A - 6'0 193
Harrison, M - 6'0 185
Wayne, R - 6'0 198
Pats- Welker, W - 5'9 185
Steeler-Ward,H - 6'0 205

This list is just some of the AFC teams. Should I continue?

Extra note: those 'West Coast Offense' teams Green Bay, Seattle, Tampa Bay all their receivers are short dudes

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by 30gut

In the Red Zone speed is still an essential factor in gaining separation from the defender to get open. (separation is not just vertical, but horizontal also)

Thanks for the Offense 101.

Originally Posted by 30gut

*Also you don't have to pass to score in the Red Zone. If we must throw to a 'big' receiver we can always split Cooley out wide.

Cooley is not out-jumping many NFL CBs. I don't recall him scoring on any fades since he's been here.

Originally Posted by 30gut

I think people forget the majority of productive receivers in the NFL are under 6'2 and they still seem to score inside the 20 and even inside the 10 (oh my!) and on the goalline.

Bengals- T.J. Housh- 6'1 199
Chad Johnson- 6'1 192
Colts- Gonzalez, A - 6'0 193
Harrison, M - 6'0 185
Wayne, R - 6'0 198
Pats- Welker, W - 5'9 185
Steeler-Ward,H - 6'0 205

This list is just some of the AFC teams. Should I continue?

Let's discuss, the stats are all this regular season. First, 6' 1" is not small. Not a "Big receiver" but not small and both Houz & Johnson are threats on a fade, which give them the option to run the slant more effectively (reinforcing my point).

Houz - 12 Total TDs. 2 - Between 10-20, 6 - Inside 10. Of the 6 inside the 10, 4 were inside routes.
Johnson - 8 Total TDs. 1 between 10-20, 4 - Inside 10. 2 were inside routes.
Wayne - 10 Total TDs. 0 - Between 10-20, 4 Inside 10. 2 were inside routes.
Gonzalez only scored 3 TDs all year, none in the Red Zone.
Harrison - obviously injured, but his numbers are normally similar to Wayne's.
Welker - Didn't he have Randy Moss on the outside to open things up inside?
Hines Ward - Too lazy to check.

My point is that the smaller receivers aren't usually beating the D on outside routes especially in the Red Zone. And especially in the case of Welker, look what a big receiver that can run a fade does to help the smaller, quicker guys. Steve Smith begged for Keyshawn in Carolina and Key wasn't out-running anyone at that point in his career. Again to my point....Balance.

Originally Posted by 30gut

Extra note: those 'West Coast Offense' teams Green Bay, Seattle, Tampa Bay all their receivers are short dudes

Hackett is 6'2". M. Clayton is 6'4" & Stovall is 6'5" in TB.

[30gut]

Slingin Sammy 33 Said:

Let's discuss, the stats are all this regular season. First, 6' 1" is not small. Not a "Big receiver" but not small and both Houz & Johnson are threats on a fade, which give them the option to run the slant more effectively (reinforcing my point).

Houz - 12 Total TDs. 2 - Between 10-20, 6 - Inside 10. Of the 6 inside the 10, 4 were inside routes.
Johnson - 8 Total TDs. 1 between 10-20, 4 - Inside 10. 2 were inside routes.
Wayne - 10 Total TDs. 0 - Between 10-20, 4 Inside 10. 2 were inside routes.
Gonzalez only scored 3 TDs all year, none in the Red Zone.
Harrison - obviously injured, but his numbers are normally similar to Wayne's.
Welker - Didn't he have Randy Moss on the outside to open things up inside?
Hines Ward - Too lazy to check.

My point is that the smaller receivers aren't usually beating the D on outside routes especially in the Red Zone. And especially in the case of Welker, look what a big receiver that can run a fade does to help the smaller, quicker guys. Steve Smith begged for Keyshawn in Carolina and Key wasn't out-running anyone at that point in his career. Again to my point....Balance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay your new point:

My point is that the smaller receivers aren't usually beating the D on outside routes especially in the Red Zone.


:confused:That's why we should get Monk (great name) a 'Big' receiver. Despite his lack of speed, and injuries, and limited production (possibly due to the run first nature of the school)

Maybe its b/c fade patterns are cooler than slants patterns, Or maybe its the lasting image of Burress's fade pattern in the superbowl. I don't know. But last time i checked a touchdown via fade isn't any better than a touchdown from a slant.

If there are more good receivers under 6'1 then over 6'1 how can a 'big' receiver be a necessity?


You said:
First, 6' 1" is not small. Not a "Big receiver" but not small and both Houz & Johnson are threats on a fade, which give them the option to run the slant more effectively (reinforcing my point).


So here are some receivers regardless of size that i think would be decent draft picks:
(Maybe we should start a thread about the 'Big' receiver vs Regular receiver concept)

Andre Caldwell, Florida
Height: 6-0. Weight: 204.
Projected 40 Time: 4.36.
Combine 40 Time: 4.37.
Vertical: . Broad .
Projected Round: 2-3.

William Franklin, Missouri
Height: 6-0. Weight: 214.
Projected 40 Time: 4.40.
Combine 40 Time: 4.37.
Vertical: 34.5. Broad .
Projected Round: 3-4.

Jerome Simpson, Coastal Carolina
Height: 6-1. Weight: 190.
Projected 40 Time: 4.46.
Combine 40 Time: 4.37.
Vertical: 37.5. Broad 11-4.
Projected Round: 4.

Dexter Jackson, Appalachian State (Smaller receiver but fast as hell)
YouTube - #2 WR Dexter Jackson Catches
Height: 5-9. Weight: 185. Projected 40 Time: 4.33.
Combine 40 Time: 4.37.
Vertical: . Broad .
Projected Round: 4-5.

*A Local kid*
Arman Shields, Richmond
Height: 6-0. Weight: 194.
Projected 40 Time: 4.44.
Combine 40 Time: 4.44.
Vertical: 37.5. Broad 10.8.
Projected Round: 7.

[That Guy]

4.57 is in no way good speed. it just isn't. and he's closer to 6'4" than 6.5".

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by That Guy

4.57 is in no way good speed. it just isn't. and he's closer to 6'4" than 6.5".

Are we are really in the days now when 4.57 is considered slow. I am not ging to say that 4.57 is elite speed but come on that is faster than alot of the guys in the NFL and to top it off timed speed and game speed are two completely different things