Redskins Insider: Draft Review

[MTK]

Originally Posted by irish

I think you are seeing it the wrong way. You said I disagree with nearly every move which means I agree with some, which I do. I can hardly think of anyone on this site besides myself that ever says anything negative about the Skins. In fact the way most talk on this board one would think the Skins are the 10 time defending Super Bowl champs instead of barely sniffing the playoffs in the past 15 years. In reality I am much more objective than 99% of the "knowledgeable" fans on this site.

I am certain that if you look back at the past posts you will see that anyone that says the Skins are great and making all the right moves is very astute and knowledgeable while anyone that utters a negative word is labeled as anti-redskin or not objective.

I think you're painting things with a pretty broad stroke there. It's not that black and white.

I think everyone has their gripes from time to time, you just tend to be overly pessimistic. It's hard to take people serious that are like that all the time, and on the other hand it's hard to take people serious who are always optimistic. I think a lot of people fall somewhere in the middle, probably more often than you realize.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by irish

No surprise this article isnt liked as JLC doesnt fit into the herd mentaility of this site. I think JLC is more correct than not.

From JLC's article:

"No team can go four wide receivers and two tight ends all the time. Just can't be done. Unless they plan on running a whole lot of empty backfield, it's going to be tricky utilizing all of these guys and the existing one. Yes, they certainly have great depth at pass catcher now, but at the expense of how much else?"

I tend not to listen to sportswriters (and fans who think they are "more correct than not") who don't have a clue.... JLC is correct, you can't run four WRs & two TEs. It requires 12 players, or an illegal formation.

JLCs credibility (and yours) just went out the window. JLC is the main Washington Post writer for the Redskins and he doesn't know enough about football to know the VERY basics. Embarrassing! HS players know this stuff.

[irish]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

From JLC's article:

"No team can go four wide receivers and two tight ends all the time. Just can't be done. Unless they plan on running a whole lot of empty backfield, it's going to be tricky utilizing all of these guys and the existing one. Yes, they certainly have great depth at pass catcher now, but at the expense of how much else?"

I tend not to listen to sportswriters (and fans who think they are "more correct than not") who don't have a clue.... JLC is correct, you can't run four WRs & two TEs. It requires 12 players, or an illegal formation.

JLCs credibility (and yours) just went out the window. JLC is the main Washington Post writer for the Redskins and he doesn't know enough about football to know the VERY basics. Embarrassing! HS players know this stuff.

You will have to email JLC and let him know that only 11 players are allowed on the field at a time. I'm sure he didnt know this.

[HOGTIMUS PRIME]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

From JLC's article:

"No team can go four wide receivers and two tight ends all the time. Just can't be done. Unless they plan on running a whole lot of empty backfield, it's going to be tricky utilizing all of these guys and the existing one. Yes, they certainly have great depth at pass catcher now, but at the expense of how much else?"

I tend not to listen to sportswriters (and fans who think they are "more correct than not") who don't have a clue.... JLC is correct, you can't run four WRs & two TEs. It requires 12 players, or an illegal formation.

JLCs credibility (and yours) just went out the window. JLC is the main Washington Post writer for the Redskins and he doesn't know enough about football to know the VERY basics. Embarrassing! HS players know this stuff.

It would be nice instead of bashing peoples credibility and moving on, to go ahead and explain how all these players will be utilized. It's quite obvious what JLC's point is that there is only room for so many of the same skill players. So lets throw out the 4-2 analogy and explain how you would use Moss, El, Cooley, Davis, Kelly, Sellars, Thomas, and lets throw Portis in that mix? Keep in mind these players were not drafted to be backup's in this league.

When you finish lets compare there possible production to other needs at other positions.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by HOGTIMUS PRIME

It would be nice instead of bashing peoples credibility and moving on, to go ahead and explain how all these players will be utilized. It's quite obvious what JLC's point is that there is only room for so many of the same skill players. So lets throw out the 4-2 analogy and explain how you would use Moss, El, Cooley, Davis, Kelly, Sellars, Thomas, and lets throw Portis in that mix? Keep in mind these players were not drafted to be backup's in this league.

When you finish lets compare there possible production to other needs at other positions.

JLC did that to himself. If he's going to make a point in a major media outlet, get your facts straight. Don't blow this off, how can you write opinions about the Redskins, say the Front Office screwed up, and not understand something so basic as this? You wouldn't use any of those players in his scenario because it would be going back 5 yds every time you line up.

To your point, Kelly and Thomas will probably not both be ready as a # 1 & #2 WR on day one, they will need to develop and learn the NFL and WCO. Here's what I envision this year as a few personnel packages:

I-Form: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Cooley TE, Sellars FB, Portis will be RB is all formations.

I-Form or Split-Back (hands): same as above with Davis / Cooley at FB & TE, not sure who is where depends on what Zorn wants to do.

3WR: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, ARE - Slot, Sellars or Cooley FB
3WR (Singleback): same as above Cooley at TE

Singleback, 2TE - Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Davis & Cooley TEs
Singleback, 2TE wide - same as above with Davis & Cooley either wide or in the slots

4WR - Moss, ARE, Kelly, Thomas.

4WR, TE - add Cooley to above

Moss will probably not get through the year healthy.
ARE is a good slot WR, not much more.
Cooley & Davis can create a lot of mismatches unless a team has very good coverage LBs. If a D brings in a nickle package against a 2TE formation for coverage they will get smashed on a run. If a D stays with LB coverage they better have some good cover LBs to account for Cooley & Davis.
Sellars will be a traditional blocking FB.

The 2nd round picks are going to be very "cap friendly" for at least three years. By 2010 Moss & ARE will be able to be released and will probably not be effective at that point anyway. From a skill player perspective we are set at WR, TE, RB for at least 3 years. These guys give Zorn many formations to go to and many potential mismatches against the D to exploit. Kelly and Thomas are also bigger WRs, gives Campbell bigger targets as he develops his accuracy.

Now how about you come up with a point better than: They should've gotten OL / DL or Campbell won't be able to throw if he doesn't have time.

[SkinEmAll]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

JLC did that to himself. If he's going to make a point in a major media outlet, get your facts straight. Don't blow this off, how can you write opinions about the Redskins, say the Front Office screwed up, and not understand something so basic as this? You wouldn't use any of those players in his scenario because it would be going back 5 yds every time you line up.

To your point, Kelly and Thomas will probably not both be ready as a # 1 & #2 WR on day one, they will need to develop and learn the NFL and WCO. Here's what I envision this year as a few personnel packages:

I-Form: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Cooley TE, Sellars FB, Portis will be RB is all formations.

I-Form or Split-Back (hands): same as above with Davis / Cooley at FB & TE, not sure who is where depends on what Zorn wants to do.

3WR: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, ARE - Slot, Sellars or Cooley FB
3WR (Singleback): same as above Cooley at TE

Singleback, 2TE - Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Davis & Cooley TEs
Singleback, 2TE wide - same as above with Davis & Cooley either wide or in the slots

4WR - Moss, ARE, Kelly, Thomas.

4WR, TE - add Cooley to above

Moss will probably not get through the year healthy.
ARE is a good slot WR, not much more.
Cooley & Davis can create a lot of mismatches unless a team has very good coverage LBs. If a D brings in a nickle package against a 2TE formation for coverage they will get smashed on a run. If a D stays with LB coverage they better have some good cover LBs to account for Cooley & Davis.
Sellars will be a traditional blocking FB.

The 2nd round picks are going to be very "cap friendly" for at least three years. By 2010 Moss & ARE will be able to be released and will probably not be effective at that point anyway. From a skill player perspective we are set at WR, TE, RB for at least 3 years. These guys give Zorn many formations to go to and many potential mismatches against the D to exploit. Kelly and Thomas are also bigger WRs, gives Campbell bigger targets as he develops his accuracy.

Now how about you come up with a point better than: They should've gotten OL / DL or Campbell won't be able to throw if he doesn't have time.

hmmmmm, I like the way you broke these scenarios down. It makes a lot of since, and seems very realistic. I like it.
brillant!!!

[HOGTIMUS PRIME]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

JLC did that to himself. If he's going to make a point in a major media outlet, get your facts straight. Don't blow this off, how can you write opinions about the Redskins, say the Front Office screwed up, and not understand something so basic as this? You wouldn't use any of those players in his scenario because it would be going back 5 yds every time you line up.

To your point, Kelly and Thomas will probably not both be ready as a # 1 & #2 WR on day one, they will need to develop and learn the NFL and WCO. Here's what I envision this year as a few personnel packages:

I-Form: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Cooley TE, Sellars FB, Portis will be RB is all formations.

I-Form or Split-Back (hands): same as above with Davis / Cooley at FB & TE, not sure who is where depends on what Zorn wants to do.

3WR: Moss - Z, Thomas - X, ARE - Slot, Sellars or Cooley FB
3WR (Singleback): same as above Cooley at TE

Singleback, 2TE - Moss - Z, Thomas - X, Davis & Cooley TEs
Singleback, 2TE wide - same as above with Davis & Cooley either wide or in the slots

4WR - Moss, ARE, Kelly, Thomas.

4WR, TE - add Cooley to above

Moss will probably not get through the year healthy.
ARE is a good slot WR, not much more.
Cooley & Davis can create a lot of mismatches unless a team has very good coverage LBs. If a D brings in a nickle package against a 2TE formation for coverage they will get smashed on a run. If a D stays with LB coverage they better have some good cover LBs to account for Cooley & Davis.
Sellars will be a traditional blocking FB.

The 2nd round picks are going to be very "cap friendly" for at least three years. By 2010 Moss & ARE will be able to be released and will probably not be effective at that point anyway. From a skill player perspective we are set at WR, TE, RB for at least 3 years. These guys give Zorn many formations to go to and many potential mismatches against the D to exploit. Kelly and Thomas are also bigger WRs, gives Campbell bigger targets as he develops his accuracy.

Now how about you come up with a point better than: They should've gotten OL / DL or Campbell won't be able to throw if he doesn't have time.

WOW, finally someone who can stuff 10lbs of bologna in a 5lbs bag.

4 WR sets? And wheres the nearest hospital? Because Campbell is on his way he just don't know it yet.

Cooley is now a fullback? Or is it Davis? Regardless neither is known for there blocking.

I honestly can't remember a real west coast system employing 2 TE's, or 4 WR's?

Now how about you come up with a point better than: They should've gotten OL / DL or Campbell won't be able to throw if he doesn't have time

Something better than that? I guess you don't find that important?
I thought the point was pretty pointed, a QB needs time to throw, and with an ageing line and no real depth that can be a real problem especially the way you have us utilizing all these receivers.

Tell me if the blocking is as it has been for the most part since Campbells arrival, how is he going to have the time to utilize a 4 receiver set?

[wilsowilso]

I remember taking a bunch of grief around here when I spoke up about my dislike for JLC. Now he is just making it too easy for Redskin fans to ignore him. I still say much of the core issue is the fact that Dan Snyder and the The Washington Post straight up hate one another.

[SmootSmack]

Problem that is that when irish decides to focus on something negative, he'll spin things every way he can to keep it negative. First we're not keeping our own key players he says, then as we start to notice a definite trend that way (Jansen, Betts, Sellers, Cooley) he say it's not enough. Then when we re-sign Cartwright, it's why are we keeping this guy?

He can call it "keeping it real" but as I said in another thread a while back, being "real" is recognizing positive change, it's not all about the negative.

Skinsfan69 can annoy me sometimes (as I'm sure, I do him). But give me his posts and analysis 10 times out of 10 over irish's.

[SmootSmack]

irish was positive about Todd Collins, if nothing else.

[Swarley]

can you tell me the last time a team has picked two WR's and a TE in a draft and all of them were ready to go by or even productive in their first year? I really doubt that we're gonna have a problem choosing how to field all the receivers because I doubt all will be healthy or productive at the same time. If they are all healthy and productive and we have to choose who plays I personally think that's a good problem to have.

[Beemnseven]

I'd like to see some evidence that Malcolm Kelly was falling down others teams' draft boards. Somehow I don't think he would have lasted much longer than where we picked him. As for La Canfora's point of a 'self-fulfilling prophecy', all teams have their own draft boards and they rank players where they think they should be. Sometimes they're wrong, sometimes they're right.

Some of you know that I've been very critical of Cerrato and Snyder over the years, but based on the pre-draft information available to everyone leading up to Saturday, it looks like we got some top-rated guys much later than they were expected to go. And when you can pick up extra selections in the process, then I must give credit where credit is due and say bravo to Vinny.

I also like the mentality of restocking the wideout department. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if both Moss and Randle El aren't here in 2009 unless cap constraints make it impossible for that to happen. But just like any other draft, you can't possibly address all your needs on one April weekend.

This offense simply doesn't score enough points. Overhauling the receivers was something this team was going to have to do at some point. They will have to rebuild the foundation of the offensive line too, no doubt. But it's not like it's falling apart before our eyes. If these guys can get us into the endzone more often this season, nobody will be complaining.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I'd like to see some evidence that Malcolm Kelly was falling down others teams' draft boards. Somehow I don't think he would have lasted much longer than where we picked him.

This goes back to what I have said recently about JLC and his "sources". He seems to value thier opinion over all else. Who they are and what their motivations go out the window. I know he has guys he trusts but maybe the "self-fulfilling prophecy" is that he seeks out nay sayers. I'd like him for once to just say "I don't agree with this" Rather than "League sources are skeptical". Of course they are. They have reason to support the decision and don't even know what the process was in making the decision. In fact in some cases they are keenly motivated to disgaree for no other reason other than to simply disagree because it is an opponent. I am sure the Skins look around and make judgements of other teams. Their opinions matter(or don't) as much as anyone else's.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

This goes back to what I have said recently about JLC and his "sources". He seems to value thier opinion over all else. Who they are and what their motivations go out the window. I know he has guys he trusts but maybe the "self-fulfilling prophecy" is that he seeks out nay sayers. I'd like him for once to just say "I don't agree with this" Rather than "League sources are skeptical". Of course they are. They have reason to support the decision and don't even know what the process was in making the decision. In fact in some cases they are keenly motivated to disgaree for no other reason other than to simply disagree because it is an opponent. I am sure the Skins look around and make judgements of other teams. Their opinions matter(or don't) as much as anyone else's.

I remember watching the draft and towards the end of the first round Malcolm Kelly was at the top of Mel Kiper's "Best Available" list of all players. And he was there for pick after pick. Now, say what you want about Mel Kiper. Some people like him, some don't.

If I had one gripe, it would the trade out of pick #21 which essentially gave us an even exchange with Atlanta (3 picks for 3 picks). We shouldn't have had to part with the first 3rd rounder. If any team wants to move up, then they have to pay for it. Now, if the deal wasn't going to get done without the 3rd and 5th, that's one thing. But I'd like to know exactly how that one went down.

[sjp21]

I know how we all love to speculate about the upcoming season and wait in earnest for September to roll around so we can see a glimpse of greatness from recent draft picks and free agent pickups. All I want to say is it is impossible to accurately assess how the Skins will fair each season because we have two morons at the head of our organization. Snyder and Cerratto have been a plague to this team for as long as I can remember. Blown draft picks and absurb free agent signings are a common phenomenon in this town. Just rattling off a few names: Adam Archuleta, Brandon Lloyd, TJ Duckett, Bruce Smith, and Ade Jimoh. All these players with the exception of Jimoh were given enormous salaries and bonuses and yielded little or no production. They actually in reality hurt us. Duckett was famous for losing yards, any deep ball would fly over Jimoh's head, Archuleta couldnt cover a cripple, and Lloyd has about 20 catches in 3 years...

I have been a fan of this team for 20 years and I love them to death. I just want people to understand that in D.C. no one can know how each season will pan out...

On a good note, our draft was relatively successful. We could have used an aggressive, quick, strong DE but you can never get what you want with the team all the time.