russia/ georgia

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I think that concept eludes closer to 100% of Americans (and everyone else around the world for that matter). Even those who champion the virtues of the UN want the U.S. to use its power unilaterally when the mood so strikes.

Take Kosovo and Bosnia as an example. For years, the left had talked about the need to work through international organizations to accomplish our foreign policy objectives because, after all, one day we would no longer be top dog. Then along came the breakup of Yugoslavia and some horrific crimes against humanity. The left wanted to take action but, alas, Russia threatened to veto any UN Security Council resolutions authorizing the use of force against their Serb allies. So what did the left do? They told the UN to go f' itself and bombed the Serbs without UN approval.

I don't mean to pick on the left. The right tends to care even less about the UN and international law.

My point in agreeing with saden1 is that you never hear the end of individuals in this country talking about how we should just "turn that desert into a sheet of glass" and how we could/should take down anybody that disagrees with us. But let some other country exert that same self-granted moral authority over another and we as citizens tend to get up in arms.

I'm not saying that Russia is right or wrong with their present course of action, but I think that if you look at the situation objectively, the conflict between Georgia and Russia is, from a very simplistic standpoint, fundamentally similar to the one we have with Iraq. Both countries (Russia and the US) are using a perceived injustice to justify their larger goal of regime change in another country. We can hide behind western morality all we like but the simple fact is that we have customarily used our superior military force to make changes to governments with views contrary to our own.

Were i able to read in Russian, I have no doubt that state-backed Newspapers/Media talk about how it is important to crush the terrorists (or whatever buzzword the Russian govt has chosen to identify those with whom it disagrees). I'm sure the drumbeat throughout Moscow right now is remarkably similar to the one heard in Washington during May of 2003. But because the aggressor in this case is ANYONE other than the United States, Great Britain or Israel, they are of course wrong.

I'm not being unpatriotic, I'm merely pointing out the extreme irony of the pot calling the kettle "black."

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I think it's really only one person in this thread, not the "lefties" as a whole.

I think everyone does it to some degree and not just on this issue. I was a little rantish there I guess.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by dmek25

if the connection between 9-11 and iraq can be made, so can this one. i dont know why this seems so unreasonable. i dont think old W has any problem opening up the cold war again

So your back in your democrat hand book. Also please find us the quote from this administration linking Iraq to 9/11. The only thing have ever heard and the 9/11 report confirmed that Iraq did have some ties to terrorist organizations.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

No need for personal attacks...they certainly don't elevate and evolve the conversation.

While I agree that Sadens post starting this thread was not based on allot of facts we should not make this personal or attack him personaly. Me and Saden agree on about nothing when it comes to politics but we also never use personal attacks on each other so lets not start now.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Wow Dmek, once again putting on display for all the Warpath to see exactly how uneducated you are.

Pathetic attempt at a good topic.

one of these days, im going to pick up a book, or 2, so i can elevate my intelligence to somewhere near the level of someone like you. i know in my wildest dreams i could never achieve this greatness, but maybe i could be somewhere in the same area code. and thanks to saden, and firstdown, for not making it personal

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by dmek25

one of these days, im going to pick up a book, or 2, so i can elevate my intelligence to somewhere near the level of someone like you. i know in my wildest dreams i could never achieve this greatness, but maybe i could be somewhere in the same area code. and thanks to saden, and firstdown, for not making it personal

Your welcome but before you start reading a new book I would like for you to first find that link this administration made of 9/11 to Iraq.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

We can hide behind western morality all we like but the simple fact is that we have customarily used our superior military force to make changes to governments with views contrary to our own

To be clear-not to you, but to others who may think so-this did not begin with W. Not talking about what other countries have done, using our military might to "encourage" changes worlwide (good or bad) is something we have done for decades if not longer.


Model Citizen Zero Discipline....Panama! Panama!

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by firstdown

While I agree that Sadens post starting this thread was not based on allot of facts we should not make this personal or attack him personaly. Me and Saden agree on about nothing when it comes to politics but we also never use personal attacks on each other so lets not start now.

I think you mean dmek's post starting the thread, not saden's.

[saden1]

"Cease Fire, Cease Fire!"

I am Mikhail Saakashvili and approve this message.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

To be clear-not to you, but to others who may think so-this did not begin with W. Not talking about what other countries have done, using our military might to "encourage" changes worlwide (good or bad) is something we have done for decades if not longer.


Model Citizen Zero Discipline....Panama! Panama!

To be truthful, we have done it ever since we realized we had the means to do so.

[mheisig]

I'm not sure if there's anyone left who will argue that Bush has been a great president. I voted for the guy, and I'm more than happy to tell you he's been a disaster.

Unfortunately some people have such a blind hatred of Bush that they simply look past everything else. Bush is bad, therefore he's to blame for everything: your flat tire, your dog that isn't housebroken and your wife who just left you.

Bush has been a miserable president, but to attribute every random crisis to him is just asinine and shows a complete inability to reason through a particular situation.

Like SmootSmack said, it's a complex situation involving a number of countries - simply saying "It's all Bush's fault" is an absurd oversimplification.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by Angry

In 2004 the military was considering reinstituting the Draft.

U.S. considering mandatory draft - Opinion

And again in 2007

Iraq war czar: Consider a draft - CNN.com

In 2007 it was explained why they didn't.

US not considering draft: Pentagon

Conclusion: It is not a strectch of the imagination that reinstituting the Draft is considered by our government and military from time to time. However, they always revert back to the "An all volunteer Army is a better Army" theory.

The issues gets brought up on a regular basis by, usually by Rep. Rangel or someone else. It always gets defeated and isn't considered a viable option by hardly any military experts.

The modern U.S. military isn't what is was back in WW2. The amount of training and time that goes into a U.S. soldier is astronomical. They don't just grab a few guys, show them which end of the gun to point toward the enemy and send them on their way. These guys are operating complex pieces of technology on a daily basis and require an incredible amount of training.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but reinstating the draft is VERY unlikely. It's usually brought up as a way to strike some fear into people so we don't get into a war or extend ourselves. Kind of along the lines of, "Oh, you want to go to war huh? How about we reinstate...the DRAFT!" And Rangel jumps out of a closet waving his arms...

[12thMan]

This is actually a good thread. Just skimming the posts, I don't if it's already been mentioned what Russia's true justification is for invading South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

For the past ten years or so Russia has been sending passports to the citzens of both regions. Thereby making both of these regions pro-Russia in many ways. So when Georgia, allegdly, got into a conflict with the citzens of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Russia felt justified in "protecting" their people. See they don't see this as an invasion, but rather protecting Russian citizens. And the fact that the U.S. needs Russia to help us with the situation in Iran, further ties our hands to act in any meaningful way.

This is a european problem if you ask me. I just don't see how this Administration or the next one, for that matter, can do much about Russia's designs on becoming a world power once again.

[12thMan]

Just to add to the my last point, oil and energy is also in play here. It's just plain old messy.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I think you mean dmek's post starting the thread, not saden's.

Ok I'm all backwards right now.