Moral based question:

[Hog1]

Ask the Prof. Your conscience wil be clear. All will be well, and the teach will respect for it! And if that doesn't work for you, see if you can buy a copy of the exam

[BDBohnzie]

Morally, I'd clear it up with the professor. Ask the professor to clarify his response by asking if calculators are to be cleared, and would you be able to program in any formulas you would need to use. That way you are in the clear and it can't be used against you...

However, what I always laugh at (not that Daseal would do this) was those students who programmed stuff into their calculators/cheat sheets and didn't know how to use the information. They just assumed that having the formulas, they would be able to figure out when to use them. I had several friends fail out of statistics and calculus because they didn't study and figured they could "cheat" their way to an A with the stuff programmed into the calculators, and then used the wrong formulas and equations.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by BDBohnzie

Morally, I'd clear it up with the professor. Ask the professor to clarify his response by asking if calculators are to be cleared, and would you be able to program in any formulas you would need to use. That way you are in the clear and it can't be used against you...

However, what I always laugh at (not that Daseal would do this) was those students who programmed stuff into their calculators/cheat sheets and didn't know how to use the information. They just assumed that having the formulas, they would be able to figure out when to use them. I had several friends fail out of statistics and calculus because they didn't study and figured they could "cheat" their way to an A with the stuff programmed into the calculators, and then used the wrong formulas and equations.

Yeah seriously. Some of my buddies in high school would spend HOURS programming every last word and number from their notebooks into their calculators before Calc and Physics tests, and they would still get very mediocre grades. If they had just spent that time actually studying....

[724Skinsfan]

For it not to be considered wrong everybody in the class would need to have the formulas stored in their calculator. Anybody that has them stored now has a competitive advantage over someone that doesn't. Most teachers are smart enough to realize this. I'll bet the professor didn't consider or simply forget to include the fact that you can't store the formulas. Maybe, his tests are geared so that the formulas are already provided. Who knows?

Follow your conscience, though. Like gibbsisgod (do we still call him giggity or was that somebody else?) said: the professor may have everyone clear their memory before the test starts.

[firstdown]

If you think its cheating then its probably is cheating. Ask and see what the professor say's but that might not be popular with the class as then they would all know its cheating and would loose that arguement if caught.

[Daseal]

This discussion had gone the wrong way. People are breathing me a bit too far into it. As I've said multiple times, I'm personally not willing to take any chance of an honor code violation -- simply because the reward isn't worth the risk. Personally, I feel like if the professor doesn't say something isn't allowed, then that means it is allowed. But I was curious how people felt about something like this.

724Skinsfan -- every student is allowed to use a calculator. Thus everyone has access to plugging formulas into their calculators if they so choose. As BDBohnzie said, you can have all the formulas in the world, but practice is what makes them happen. I think I have a good idea of the basic thoughts of the community. Seems somewhere around 60/40 for cheating/not cheating. Pretty close. Interesting.

[Daseal]

Trample: In that case, this situation isn't cheating. If the professor didn't want this then he has multiple options:

1. No Calculators. 2. Only a 4 function calculator. 3. Explicitly say "No programs, text, etc in the calculators." The rules are set by both the in class syllabus and what the professor says. I keep seeing people say, on a regular basis, 'breaking the rules.' However, there are no rules in place. This is an easy situation for a professor to avoid, if they want to, and all professors fully understand what these calculators are capable of doing.

At this point, it doesn't matter. I know all but one -- and thats getting going straight from me reading 500 times right before the test to where people normally put their names.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Trample: In that case, this situation isn't cheating. If the professor didn't want this then he has multiple options:

1. No Calculators. 2. Only a 4 function calculator. 3. Explicitly say "No programs, text, etc in the calculators." The rules are set by both the in class syllabus and what the professor says. I keep seeing people say, on a regular basis, 'breaking the rules.' However, there are no rules in place. This is an easy situation for a professor to avoid, if they want to, and all professors fully understand what these calculators are capable of doing.

At this point, it doesn't matter. I know all but one -- and thats getting going straight from me reading 500 times right before the test to where people normally put their names.

I knew you could do it.

[CRedskinsRule]

Daseal, I guess I missed the answer to this, but did you ever point blank ask the professor? Or the TA's if the class has them?

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Daseal, I guess I missed the answer to this, but did you ever point blank ask the professor? Or the TA's if the class has them?

Well, of course not, then there would be no "moral" dilemma.

Only in ignorance do we contemplate morality. <-- I am not sure what that means, but it sure sounds deep.

[GTripp0012]

As someone who's already done this (on a TI-84 never-the-less), it's definitely cheating. With that said, it's not particularly helpful cheating. If you have to go to the formulas every few seconds, it's going to be tough to stay in a rhythm that is conducive to successful test taking.

In general, I prefer not to cheat because I treat grades as more of a way to see how apt I am/am not at certain lessons rather than a chance to show everything I know. If I feel I'm going into a situation where clearly, the test is just going to be an unmitigated disaster that's totally unhelpful to me, I'm not above doing something to show that I do understand what I'm supposed to.

From either perspective, I'd say you are making the right decision.

[GTripp0012]

From the same perspective, Holding is cheating in blocking. If you do it and don't get caught, you've saved your team from failure, but that doesn't change the fact that you screwed up and were out of position. If you do it and get caught, you are penalized ten yards, best case scenario.

The spirit of the rule is that you are supposed to not hold a man who has beaten you fairly. But if that was the direct result of the rule, there would never be any holding. It's still a part of the game, even though it's technically cheating the opponent.

[Daseal]

JoeRedskin, you're a lawyer. If there's a practice that's looked down upon, but a corporation can do it via a loophole. Is it wrong? Answer: absolutely not, it's legal. I'm just trying to find out what makes this situation any different in the minds of most folks.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Daseal

JoeRedskin, you're a lawyer. If there's a practice that's looked down upon, but a corporation can do it via a loophole. Is it wrong? Answer: absolutely not, it's legal. I'm just trying to find out what makes this situation any different in the minds of most folks.

But I would really compare this more to radar detectors. I am pretty sure they are legal in Md, if I drive into Va, and still use mine, because I wasn't sure whether I could have one but not turn it on or have one I bought out of state, etc, then if I get caught, it's not a loophole, it's a ticket.

A loophole is something that is legal, and most people who use loopholes find out the exact boundaries so that they know what they can and can't do. Anyone trying to use a loophole, while keeping intentionally unaware of the rules, is asking to be burned.

[JoeRedskin]

Daseal - so what's your question?
Is it legal? - that's easy enough to determine: check the rules. If it's not prohibited, then it's "legal". Legal, however, doesn't necessarily equate with ethical simply because no law/rule/policy can anticipate every possible permutation of facts. For example, in your corporate question, given the facts you state, sure the act is legal - that's why they are called "loopholes". You cannot be punished if you don't break the rules. People find and take advantage of loopholes all the time - some in an ethical way, and some in an unethical way.

Is it ethical? - only if you're approaching the question honestly. You seem to imply that it's the Profs job to clarify all the fudgy areas. I would disagree - see the "can't anticipate all possible problems" statement above. If you have something that causes you to question the "legality" of a particular act and you intentionally seek ignorance in hopes that it will benefit you, that, to me, is dishonest and unethical - regardless of its legality.