Is it finally time to rebuild??

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Longtimefan

I agree SS...In the case of Gano, there wasn't a lot of pressure on him to make either of the kicks he missed yesterday We play so many close games that in most instances a F/G often decides the outcome of the game. Should the team ever get to the point where it can score touchdowns and not be so dependent on F/G's some of the pressure may be relieved on the young kicker. Another case where a little patience should be exhibited.

I think people are forgetting that it most likely was not about pressure but instead about how soft the field was. I'm betting Gano could not plant his left foot like he usually likes to do in order to get a good swing of his right leg into hitting the ball. I'd almost bet a lot on the fact Gano had to adjust his kicking due to the fact he didn't want to slip and fall while trying to kick which the adjustment alone probably caused his troubles. No different then McNabb having to adjust his throws or game plan if it's a windy day.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I think people are forgetting that it most likely was not about pressure but instead about how soft the field was. I'm betting Gano could not plant his left foot like he usually likes to do in order to get a good swing of his right leg into hitting the ball. I'd almost bet a lot on the fact Gano had to adjust his kicking due to the fact he didn't want to slip and fall while trying to kick which the adjustment alone probably caused his troubles. No different then McNabb having to adjust his throws or game plan if it's a windy day.

I might buy that if their kicker didn't go 3/3 and even hit a 44 yarder

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Graham Gano essentially represents the conundrum Redskins fans face. Ask every 5 Redskins fans, and probably 3 want him gone. But if you want to rebuild, you probably have to have patience and put up with Gano missing some kicks, Sundberg botching a snap, Banks fumbling, Riley committing a penalty, Moore missing a tackle...that said, there's a fine (very fine) line between being patient and holding on for too long

Don't have a problem with Gano missing yesterday. Keep the guy around and let him learn from it and hopefully it will make him mentally tougher. Same w/ Riley. Actually I'd like to see Riley get snaps on defense and Banks more snaps on offense. At this point what good does it do the team in the future to keep putting Roydell Williams out there? Moore really doesn't seem like he's a good player. If your free safety can't tackle then it's time to move on.

[SolidSnake84]

I've kind of wondered about attendance before. If we keep having all these losing seasons, i guess at some point we really could be like Detroit, and have the stands at less than capacity.

How bad do things have to get around here for us to experience a "blackout" from TV, like other poor franchises have??

[BDBohnzie]

The Redskins are rebuilding. As it's been pointed out, 1/3 of the roster was turned over, and with limited resources, Shanahan and Allen did the best they could to put a team on the field this year. Combine that with injuries and transitions on both sides of the football, and you have a team that looks like what the Skins are right now.

The foreseeable future (2011, 2012), you'll see more of the roster overturned, and Shanahan will have the opportunity to fill in the gaps with guys he thinks can run the system. After last week's thumping and yesterday's sloppy loss, these guys are playing for their careers the rest of the season. They'll have to prove to Shanny that they can fit the system and continue to improve.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by ethat001

Sure, we've been saying this for years, and Shanahan decided not to rebuild last year. I still wonder whether that was the right choice. BUT - now our starting #1 WR is 32 with few options behind him, our best LB and key to the defense is Fletcher (36) and here's an abbreviated list of one of the oldest rosters on the planet (ages for 2011):

P.Daniels - will be 38
McNabb - will be 35
Fletcher - will be 36
Casay Rabach - will be 34
Artis Hicks - will be 32
Santana Moss - will be 32
Andre Carter - will be 32
Kemo - will be 32
D. Dockery - will be 31
Clinton Portis - will be 30
Roydell Williams - will be 30

Cooley - will be 29
J.Brown - will be 29

I won't mention Galloway is all but already retired.

The question is - can we fix this team in 2-3 years? If not, we should rebuild, dump older players and accept a couple of bad seasons as they get experience. The Capitals rebuilt and now has one of the best young rosters in the league for years to come. The Eagles and Tampa Bay also come to mind with young talent.

The second question is: since coaches are rewarded for success - is there no incentive for Shanahan to rebuild because he knows that he could get fired if he does not deliver success within 2 years?

I listened to the radio today and they mentioned that a writer supposedly heard or is writing about how Shanahan might be gone and Gruden in. lol. Shanahan signed a 5 yr deal. At the end of last yr everyone screamed to DS to get rid of VC, Higher a decent GM and HC, let them coach and build a team, and continuity. Everyone said we can't keep changing our system every 2 yrs. I'd like to think Shanahan will get his 5 yrs as long as he keeps showing improvement each year. Now if the team gets worse or still has a losing record then I can see DS letting Shanahan go, but not until after he has a few yrs to try and fix 10 yrs of distruction.

Now you mentioned needing to replace 5 people on the defensive side of the ball. Clearly Kemo is not the answer, or so I believe. Carter is not a 3-4 type of LB. Fletcher did pretty well and if they pick up another decent LB to replace Carter the LB might show better. If the team can build up the DL to younger, healthier, faster players who can take on more then one guy then the LB's might be able to get a better pass rush.

Depending on whats available in FA might depend on what they have to do in the draft. I'd like to see the team either go OL or DL in the first two picks, but since we have many needs it might also be wise to back out of our mid 1st round pick for more picks. Rabach has to go. I'd take either Center or RT. I feel if we can get the 3 main staples of the OL shored up the two Guard positions don't have to be top ranked talent. We also need a NT unless one of our Rookie guys steps up. and the QB spot? I get the feeling McNabb is here to stay and thats ok with me as long as they do something with the OL to give McNabb more time to throw and make holes for our RBs. Otherwise I see the need to get someone with legs to be able to run from when he has to.

I'd be happy going into next year with Torain, Williams, and Davis, but I'd still pick up a RB maybe a UFA who's decent. WR is the biggest need after OL on offense. Maybe Vince Jackson will be available, TJ Houshmendzadeh, and after them I'm not sure who is available. Those two alone along with Armstrong might be formidable. Thats not even talking about Austin yet and maybe another UFA WR.

How I'd fix this:

WR- FA.
OL- Draft.
DL- Draft.
LB- Draft/FA.
FS- Draft.
QB- Not sure. I think the teams plan is to keep McNabb. Grossman is not the answer. Can Beck be the guy? if not they need to start thinking of someone to fill in when McNabb goes down.

[hooskins]

Was thinking about starting a thread related to this. I think we trade Moss and Cooley if there are any takers.

Two of my favorite Skins, but when it is all said and done I will love the Skins well after they are old and gray. Have to think about the team and I just want to blow it up and start over again. Picks help.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by hooskins

Was thinking about starting a thread related to this. I think we trade Moss and Cooley if there are any takers.

Two of my favorite Skins, but when it is all said and done I will love the Skins well after they are old and gray. Have to think about the team and I just want to blow it up and start over again. Picks help.

Why do we gotta trade Cooley? Why not just trade Davis? Cooley is a pro bowler and Davis has become obsolete recently. We hardly hear of him. He's young and did step in well for Cooley when Cooley was injured so why not just throw him out as trade bait?

You get rid of Cooley for picks or something then you have to replace Cooley. You trade Davis (hopefully for a pick) you still have talent at TE. Plus every team has a player with a cool name they draw out when a great play is made. Ours is COOOOOOOLLLEEEEEEEYYYYYY! Sorry just can't get rid of him. We won't get much for Moss, he's old, and usually has a hammy or groin pull. Same with Portis.

We have a better chance of simply trading out of our mid round 1st pick for a late round 1st and late round 2nd or 3rd vs. trading people away for picks. Trust me if they are valuable to others then they should be valuable to us. Especially since we have so few valuable pieces.

[hooskins]

Waiting for Tanner's wrath....

[mooby]

Originally Posted by ethat001

Sure, we've been saying this for years, and Shanahan decided not to rebuild last year. I still wonder whether that was the right choice. BUT - now our starting #1 WR is 32 with few options behind him, our best LB and key to the defense is Fletcher (36) and here's an abbreviated list of one of the oldest rosters on the planet (ages for 2011):

P.Daniels - will be 38
McNabb - will be 35
Fletcher - will be 36
Casay Rabach - will be 34
Artis Hicks - will be 32
Santana Moss - will be 32
Andre Carter - will be 32
Kemo - will be 32
D. Dockery - will be 31
Clinton Portis - will be 30
Roydell Williams - will be 30

Cooley - will be 29
J.Brown - will be 29

I won't mention Galloway is all but already retired.

The question is - can we fix this team in 2-3 years? If not, we should rebuild, dump older players and accept a couple of bad seasons as they get experience. The Capitals rebuilt and now has one of the best young rosters in the league for years to come. The Eagles and Tampa Bay also come to mind with young talent.

The second question is: since coaches are rewarded for success - is there no incentive for Shanahan to rebuild because he knows that he could get fired if he does not deliver success within 2 years?

Look at those players on your list and look how many might be gone this offseason.

P.Daniels - I think he might retire after this one, it sounds like 15 NFL seasons has started to take his toll on his body, and judging from him not showing up on the injury report with anything serious means it's just a lot of aches and pains that won't go away.

McNabb - staying obviously
Fletcher - probably staying
Casey Rabach - Definitely needs to go
Hicks - Stay or go, if he stays he needs to go to being a backup
Santana Moss - Stay, we already have enough holes to fill, we don't need to fill his #1 wideout spot right now
Carter - If we are going to fully commit to a 3-4 next season he needs to go. See if we can get something for him trade wise and if not (probably not) just cut him.
Kemo - He can stay, just needs to be a backup
Dockery - He can go, he's just wasting a roster spot
Portis - He can stay if he is healthy, but if he does stay next year will likely be his last as a Redskin.
Roydell Williams - I think we can do better than him but if he's gone it's no biggie.
Cooley - Might be trade bait, one of the few players of value the Skins have and I wouldn't mind Davis being our full time te if he's more consistent.
Jammal Brown - stay.

So when you look at that list there's probably 3-4 starters in there and the rest will either be cut or be backup players. I wouldn't mind rebuilding here but as has been mentioned it's something the fans wouldn't like (it means committing to most likely having a losing season that would be better for us in the long run) and I'm not sure Danny would like it either. I think he doesn't mind the idea of rebuilding but he's probably also concerned with how to keep profits up during a/multiple losing seasons. It's not like the way we're doing things now is working though, depending on your definition.

[SmootSmack]

Trading draft picks for older players (over 30) has happened much much much less frequently than we fans seem to want to think it has. Aside from McNabb, how many times have we done that in recent years? I'm sure there have been a couple other times, but I really can't think of them

[mooby]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Trading draft picks for older players (over 30) has happened much much much less frequently than we fans seem to want to think it has. Aside from McNabb, how many times have we done that in recent years? I'm sure there have been a couple other times, but I really can't think of them

Jason Taylor? For me it's not so much trading our draft picks for players over 30, it's trading our draft picks for players who fail to make a difference. We gave up a 2nd for Taylor, he gave us 1 season and bitched his way out of here at the end of it. I'm just tired of trading for/signing players who we don't have good judgement on (I'm looking at you Fat Al).

I feel like we would have a much higher chance of success with a player that at least one guy on our coaching staff was familiar with, it seems when we trade for players that nobody on our staff has ever worked with before it usually ends up being a failure.

And it's kind of obvious we're not rebuilding, and if we are rebuilding, we're doing a pretty bad job at it. You don't trade away multiple draft picks for a 34 year old quarterback if you're not planning on winning now.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by mooby

Jason Taylor? For me it's not so much trading our draft picks for players over 30, it's trading our draft picks for players who fail to make a difference. We gave up a 2nd for Taylor, he gave us 1 season and bitched his way out of here at the end of it. I'm just tired of trading for/signing players who we don't have good judgement on (I'm looking at you Fat Al).

I feel like we would have a much higher chance of success with a player that at least one guy on our coaching staff was familiar with, it seems when we trade for players that nobody on our staff has ever worked with before it usually ends up being a failure.

And it's kind of obvious we're not rebuilding, and if we are rebuilding, we're doing a pretty bad job at it. You don't trade away multiple draft picks for a 34 year old quarterback if you're not planning on winning now.

Jason Taylor! Right, I knew it was forgetting someone. But anyhow, the way I see it we make trades to get guys like Jason Campbell, Rocky McIntosh, Brandon Lloyd, Adam Carriker...that's not trading for older players really.

Like I said in another thread, I really didn't and don't have a problem with the trade for McNabb but along with that move last year should have been a move to add a QB for the future. It's not Beck, and I really doubt they went into training camp with thoughts that Colt would be that guy.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Jason Taylor! Right, I knew it was forgetting someone. But anyhow, the way I see it we make trades to get guys like Jason Campbell, Rocky McIntosh, Brandon Lloyd, Adam Carriker...that's not trading for older players really.

Like I said in another thread, I really didn't and don't have a problem with the trade for McNabb but along with that move last year should have been a move to add a QB for the future. It's not Beck, and I really doubt they went into training camp with thoughts that Colt would be that guy.

Exactly. I'm fine with trading for guys like Campbell, McIntosh, Carriker, etc., guys that fit your current system and you see being the long term future. If I was the Redskins though, I wouldn't want to trade for an established vet unless the guy coaching him was familiar with him from some previous spot in their career. I feel like we trade for vets, then ask them to do something they aren't used to, they don't like it, and either get out of here through bitching or playing unproductively so they are forced out.

As has been mentioned by 44 70 chip, a lot of those trades he listed were for players our coaching staff had no familiarity with, and we all know how a lot of those moves panned out.

As for your post SS, I think the Skins use a high draft pick on a qb this year. This draft is particularly qb heavy and I do think since the qb we draft won't be a top 5, starter from day 1 kinda guy, we need to give him a season or two to sit under McNabb and watch before the reigns get handed to him.

[44 70 chip]

Well my post wasn't about older players specifically but the "careless" way the FO has used draft picks in general. Notice Carriker is not on there several other's like Eathan Albright...

The ones I listed are stand outs for pissing away draft picks.

Cooley love him, great TE but honestly don't need to spend 2 picks on a TE, there are highly comparable TE's drafted with ONE pick... Not putting Cooley down but he's not Antonio Gates.

Portis, if anything a smart GM would have asked for a pick back from Denver... throwing a pick in there was sheer stupidity MAYBE... Shut down corners are and were a much more valuable comodity than Mike Shanahan running backs... He's a good redskin and nothing against portis but they overpaid.

Campbell... we overpaid and even at the time the pick was considered a "reach" and "risky".

And so on... the point isn't ... oh hell the point doesn't need to be anything but this:

we used 19 draft picks to get Cooley, Portis, an average inside LB and MAYBE McNabb for a couple years, and Brown for 3 more games MAYBE more...

19 picks for 5-ish players