There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition

[hooskins]

Religion can be great but there are many examples where it abused. This is one of them. Violence is never the answer.

[los panda]

human nature is not professional

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

This is clearly a problem with "religion" overall, not violent Islamic extremist factions. I was just watching the news reports of violent mobs of Christians, Jews, Buhdists, moderate Muslims, etc. storming the Egyptian and Libyan embassies here in the U.S. in retaliation.

Last I checked the U.S. was providing many countries in the ME with billions (aggregate) in aid to improve people's standard of living and attempt to promote human rights.....bad U.S., very bad!


:frusty:

Might want to broaden your frame of reference a bit. Once you do, I'm sure you'll find plenty of violent behavior attributable to the western religions you mentioned. (hmm... Crusades? Salem witch trials? Catholic persecution of scientists)

And regarding the US, let's cut the shit. Any dollar that makes its way into the ME is sent with the underlying purpose of subverting their chosen way of life in favor of the western style which we, in our infinite wisdom, have decided to force upon the rest of the world. If they want to live under an Islamist government, that's their right. We don't have the moral authority to get involved. If we had abstained from being so goddamned proactive in the affairs of other nations, there's a good chance that there would never have been a 9/11. Just because we send some funds their way does not mean we have the right to interfere.

With regards to the violence we're discussing, it can be boiled down to two simple factors:

1) religion provides the moral authority to do violence against those who have beliefs contrary to yours. (contrasted with agnostics and atheists who don't have any supernatural father figure to tell them it's alright to go mass murder each other)

2) the US has repeatedly ****ed with these people in such various and obscenely short sighted ways that we are now collectively reaping what we have sewn.

Those two pieces combined result in what we are experiencing now. Impossible to deny.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Might want to broaden your frame of reference a bit. Once you do, I'm sure you'll find plenty of violent behavior attributable to the western religions you mentioned. (hmm... Crusades? Salem witch trials? Catholic persecution of scientists)

Of course you're right, Christians do nothing but perpetrate violence on others. Nice you needed to reach back hundreds of years for your references.

And regarding the US, let's cut the shit. Any dollar that makes its way into the ME is sent with the underlying purpose of subverting their chosen way of life in favor of the western style which we, in our infinite wisdom, have decided to force upon the rest of the world. If they want to live under an Islamist government, that's their right. We don't have the moral authority to get involved. If we had abstained from being so goddamned proactive in the affairs of other nations, there's a good chance that there would never have been a 9/11. Just because we send some funds their way does not mean we have the right to interfere.

Any interference/funding in the ME has a lot more to do with secular U.S. interests (goodwill/positive outreach are generally better for business than violence) that promoting a religious agenda.

With regards to the violence we're discussing, it can be boiled down to two simple factors:

1) religion provides the moral authority to do violence against those who have beliefs contrary to yours. (contrasted with agnostics and atheists who don't have any supernatural father figure to tell them it's alright to go mass murder each other)

2) the US has repeatedly ****ed with these people in such various and obscenely short sighted ways that we are now collectively reaping what we have sewn.

Those two pieces combined result in what we are experiencing now. Impossible to deny.

While we're cutting through shit, let's cut through your shit. You're quite anti-religious and paint with a very broad brush in your negative (and very condescending) statements against those who are religious. While you focus on the violence done by religious extremists, or those who manipulate people using religion, you never mention the vast good people who are religious do everyday in the name of their God/religion.

And while agnostics/atheists may not have a "supernatural father figure" that tells them to commit murder, those that want to commit violence for secular reasons (money/power/statism) don't have any moral compass to hold them back from mass murder. For example; tens of millions murdered by Communist regimes such as the USSR, China, Cuba, etc. Japan's persecution of Christians in the 1600-1800s, Mexico's persecution in the early 1900s.

Look at the violence in U.S. society today, most of it is over $$$, drugs, etc....purely secular. It's pretty old to hear athetists/agnostics bash religion every chance they get with weak arguments.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Of course you're right, Christians do nothing but perpetrate violence on others. Nice you needed to reach back hundreds of years for your references.

A recent example? Damn, you got me... wait, except for this minor incident. And these...

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

While we're cutting through shit, let's cut through your shit. You're quite anti-religious and paint with a very broad brush in your negative (and very condescending) statements against those who are religious.

All true, and I often forget to account for the power of prayer. (Now that's condescending!)

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

And while agnostics/atheists may not have a "supernatural father figure" that tells them to commit murder, those that want to commit violence for secular reasons (money/power/statism) don't have any moral compass to hold them back from mass murder. For example; tens of millions murdered by Communist regimes such as the USSR, China, Cuba, etc.

No these regimes do not require holy authority, which is why in addition to my normal anti-religion shit talking I was also coming out against US Foreign Policy. (remember, there were two components of my argument...) We potentially kill innocents with every drone strike, let's not pretend we operate on a higher moral level. Also... with all of our awesome dedication to the sanctity of human life, we're still the only society that's ever done this:

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Look at the violence in U.S. society today, most of it is over $$$, drugs, etc....purely secular.

Sammy, I don't know you personally, but I love you. In a completely old testament, love thy neighbor sort of way. That said, the above quote is borderline retarded. It's a complete straw man argument in that I never said Christians were run amok throughout the US causing mayhem. Or the majority of mayhem. But certainly SOME mayhem. When I think of crimes involving money, sex and drugs (oh so secular), i can't help but think of this and this, and, just because I'm originally from Lancaster, PA, i've got to include this.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

All true, and I often forget to account for the power of prayer. (Now that's condescending!)

EDIT: duplicate post...see below

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

All true, and I often forget to account for the power of prayer. (Now that's condescending!)

I'm very sorry you've had some sort of bad experiences with over-zealous Christians or something of that nature. I won't change your mind, but I will pray for you.

Hopefully, you will open your mind to accept the fact that although you can find examples of violence in the name of religion, you will find a whole heck of a lot more good that is done by people (of all faiths) in the name of their religion. And most religious folks are genuinely good people.

God Bless.

As far as your issues with U.S. policies, you sound completely ashamed of and disgusted by our country and its actions. If I felt as you appear to, I would renounce my citizenship and find a better place to call home.

[Alvin Walton]

Cracks me up when people bring up the Crusades.
How long ago was that?

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

Cracks me up when people bring up the Crusades.
How long ago was that?

to those in the middle east, the stories are retold as if it happened yesterday. they can hold a grudge.

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by That Guy

to those in the middle east, the stories are retold as if it happened yesterday. they can hold a grudge.

Suck to be that medieval.....
The can also hold a drone dropped JDAM up their wazoo then.

[That Guy]

yes, christians never pointlessly murder other religions. not in the crusades, not in the holocaust, not during the black plague (the first thing that happened is they blamed the jews and started killing them).

granted, those examples are a bit dated, but i'd says christians have killed plenty in their time too.

and you don't need to aggregate. egypt is scheduled to get 2billion from us next year alone as one of our non-NATO member allies.

[los panda]

i always accept what i'm told as the truth

[That Guy]

if bombs solved everything, america would be issue free. things just typically aren't that simple though.

[Alvin Walton]

pfffftttt
You played the Hiroshima card?
Do you have any clue how many people would have died if we would have had to invade Japan?
You may be polarized by the atomic bomb but it was the best option at the time.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

pfffftttt
You played the Hiroshima card?
Do you have any clue how many people would have died if we would have had to invade Japan?

No, do you?

And by the way... played the Hiroshima card? Seriously??? We vaporized two cities. And then have the audacity to make sure that other nations never get their hands on this dangerous technology (yet we made sure to buy enough of them to wipe out all life on the planet) because we can't trust them not to use it. We can't be trusted not to use it! In short... that's a big ****ing card when you're talking about hypocrisy.

I can't say whether that was right or wrong. Not making that argument. Just saying that we as country get really preachy when history shows that we're not shy about ****ing people up who are ideologically opposed to us.