We must draft better...

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

Thank you!! I have been trying to say this. That we cant keep certain players around because we dont manage the cap very well in the terms of allowing core players leave because of a million here or there. You can not build a chemisty with a team when every 3 years or 4 years you are adding new talent at key positions. I hope we can keep Washington, Arrington, Taylor, Rogers, Giffin for more than just 4 years. Those guys could be awesome together, especially after they play together for several years. How bad to we need smoot right now. Look how many years Tampa was dominant on D with Lynch, brooks, Barber, Sapp.

But you continue to miss the main point. Go back and read all responses to Beem's posts.

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

But you continue to miss the main point. Go back and read all responses to Beem's posts.

Not again today!! He just said will our limited amount of cap space, we sometimes, SOMETIMES can not afford to keep certain players. I agreed with his statement, how am I missing the point, HOW!! I didn't make a point, I agreed with his!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MTK]

I guess we're just arguing to which the degree this supposed cap hell is.

I'm saying we're never going to see the Redskins have a firesale like the Titans did last offseason, where their hands are tied and they are forced to part ways with key players.

The Skins have managed to avoid major problems by re-working deals and getting rid of excess baggage along the way (Trotter, Coles, etc.)

I'm well aware the potential is there with this method of cap mgmt., but again, I doubt we'll ever see "cap hell" to the degree that some other teams have faced.

Snyder always has a 3-year revolving cap plan in place, and therefore they are able to avoid many common mistakes other teams make. They take into account the dead cap space available and use it almost as a tool when calculating their cap space.

[MTK]

Here's some interesting quotes from a Vinny C. interview on extremeskins:

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/s...d.php?t=114278

On the salary cap is it a process where Snyder does that or where you and the coaches are involved with that?

Vinny Cerrato

Everybody's involved because everybody has to understand it because it impacts so much of what we do because it's all about choices. If you sign this guy then how does that hurt you in the future.

Had we signed, say, Fred Smoot, how does that effect you this year, the next year and the following year? Everything we do is planned out three years. It's budgeted out three years. If you do this thing right now and it's budgeted this way and the cap numbers are this, then in the future you can't do this or you can do that.

Everything you do kind of drives the other things you can and can't do.

Follow question

With everything being budgeted out three years, how does that work where you have somewhat surprising moves with Coles? The release of Trotter the year before? How does the budgeting plan than you have in place work with the changes in systems and philsophies recently?

Vinny Cerrato

You have to stay somewhat flexible.

That's why if you sign guys like that (Coles and Trotter) and you're so tight against the cap you have no flexibility to do anything. In the case like Tennessee this past year they couldn't even dress their full allotment of players on game day because they had no cap room.

How is it that every year the "media" tells the world that the Redskins will be in cap hell, but yet it never comes about...Do they not understand the basics behind the cap or is the cap as difficult to understand as the tax system?

Vinny Cerrato

It's about planning and it's about budgeting. It's about knowing what you can and can't do. The thing that we have an advantage of over most teams is that cash creates cap. Our owner allows us to spend cash which creates cap room. What we do historically is we give big signing bonuses and then small Paragraph 5s, which makes the cap number smaller, which allows you to have more players.

When you see these big signing bonuses they are spread out over seven years. What we've learned over the years is not to overpay older guys. If you'll notice all the guys we're paying larger signing bonuses to are young guys who can play out the contract so their cap burns off every year.

In a situation like Coles, which is not normal, we took a big cap hit, but by getting Chris Samuels done it allowed us to take his whole hit this year. After this year we have zero left of Laveranues' cap. We're taking over a $9 million cap hit this year, but after this season we have no more cap room of Laveraneus.

We weren't allowed to do certain things because of this. It limited some of the things we could and couldn't do, but it was all planned and budgeted out.

[MTK]

see above

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

see above

saw it. This is getting a bit out of hand. Skins are creating cap room by negotiating contract or renegotiating contracts, and turning roster bonuses and insentives into signing bonuses. When all this comes to fruition you will all see what I am talking about and everyone else is talking about. I am done with it. Its a never ending argument.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

saw it. This is getting a bit out of hand. Skins are creating cap room by negotiating contract or renegotiating contracts, and turning roster bonuses and insentives into signing bonuses. When all this comes to fruition you will all see what I am talking about and everyone else is talking about. I am done with it. Its a never ending argument.

Believe it or not, most people who have been debating you have a clear understanding of the fact that the Skins have been manipulating the cap. Unlike you, they also understand that manipulating the cap in an intelligent fashion is a working business model under the current CBA that has allowed us to sign and retain good talent over the last 5 years.

And as for your several articles - They are about as incisive as a cold butter knife cutting icecubes. They are pretty much cap 101. Snyder & Co. have moved into advanced cap management - something you don't seem willing or are unable to do.

More importantly - Still waiting for the specifics of how the Skins manipulation fo the cap has actually hurt us in the past and who you expect to lose. You think doom is coming and yet, when caught by an unexpected cap hit, we absorb a 9M hit and move on without cutting anybody AND signing Moss, Patten, Rabach.

Spouting of vague predictions of doom without specifics is easy. Come on man, Lay it on the Line - Who we gonna lose and when? I'll make it easier for you - Name me 5 current "core" Redskins you think are endanger of being cut FOR CAP PURPOSES. If two of them are cut this offseason, I'll do a public apology in a new thread.

As for those articles that predict our eventual disaster - Well, if its in print, it MUST be true.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

saw it. This is getting a bit out of hand. Skins are creating cap room by negotiating contract or renegotiating contracts, and turning roster bonuses and insentives into signing bonuses. When all this comes to fruition you will all see what I am talking about and everyone else is talking about. I am done with it. Its a never ending argument.

The only reason this is a never ending argument is because you're failing to see the complete picture. Yes, renegotiating delays the cap hit. But you're not seeing how fast the salary cap is growing. You can afford to delay cap hits when the salary cap limit is expected to grow $7-$10 million from 2005 to 2006. It will then grow another $7-8 million from 2006 to 2007. You're not understanding that the salary cap limit changes.

That's why we never run into a cap hell. The delays from renegotiating are carefully budgeted into the expected growth in the salary cap limit. As long as your cap overhang is growing at the same rate or slower than the salary cap limit is growing, then you're in great shape. That's what Snyder has been doing for the last 5 years.

[heybigstar]

Question for you guys?

I know that we dont have our first rounder this year for J. Campbell. And maybe not our 4th or 2nd?

But after ths 2006 draft, will we have all our picks back for the 2007 draft> That way we can start building again...

[MTK]

LOL ok, call me in 5 years and we'll see where we stand.

Can't wait for the cap crash!

[firstdown]

Man, all these numbers. Why not talk about something like if Rock runs for over 100 yards in his last game and Betts runs for 6 in his last game. Who will back up Portis Sunday against Dallas and why?

[offiss]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Man, all these numbers. Why not talk about something like if Rock runs for over 100 yards in his last game and Betts runs for 6 in his last game. Who will back up Portis Sunday against Dallas and why?

Betts will back up because he's the better back, how many yards did Rock have against the Cardinals? Betts didn't get many carries and got a big first down on 4th and short, Rock had a nice game against a lowsey Ram defense, I do like Rock but not ahead of Betts.

[Schneed10]

56fanatic, you're preaching to the choir. I understand how player salaries are renegotiated into signing bonuses. What you're failing to see is that is a good thing, not a problem.

Every time we cut a Coles or Trotter and eat a big sum of dead money, there are a huge number of players we have at cap bargains. This year we're eating $9 million on Coles, but we also have players at these bargains:
Portis $2.4 million
Griffin $1.9 million
Springs $2.4 million
Brunell $2.4 million
Jansen $2.1 million
R Thomas $2.0 million
M Washington $1.7 million

Now you're right, we'll have to eat a big number on one or two of those guys sometime very soon. Brunell is the one that comes to mind. But we'll never reach "cap hell" because we'll have other players on our roster at big time bargains, just like we do now.

If you think it's cap hell to have to eat $9 million in dead money for a Coles deal, then I think you're overreacting. That's something that every team deals with. But if you're talking cap hell where we have to dismantle our team like the Titans did, you're just wrong.

[#56fanatic]

I just had to come back and see what you people had to say about me and my post regarding the cap. Of course I supply the articles that show how teams run into the problems they do. And of course, the Redskins are above all other 31 teams and have a magical cap that no one else understands and no one else in the league has figured out. I forgot that most of our stuff is done in fantasy land, what am I thinking? You wanted proof of where I get my info, I gave it to you and you say that its not worth anything, that absolutely cracks me up. This is from a CAPOLOGIST, who does this, who knows the cap. How you and everyone else can discredit a capologist is beyond me. Of course Vinney and Dannys minions are going to say what they say. You quoted a redskin article. Are they going to come out and say we are mortgaging our future every year by handling contract this way, NO, HELL NO. they are going to say it, we have a plan, 3 year plan. Well , yeah, all these players they have now are young. and they can rework the deals to create cap room for upcoming years. But what are they going to do when these players are getting old and have to be cut, because that is what they are going to have to do. They are not going to be able to pay these backloaded deals. LaVar is a perfect example, 12 million, now you can rework it to save for the next 3 years, but when that 3 years is up, rework again? you have to pay the contracts eventually, You cannot run from it. Ask 49ers, Cowboys, Titans. You have to pay these off eventually, they dont go away, the debt just doesn't disappear. Like I said, maybe not next year or the year after, but when Portis, Arrington, Washington , Griffin, Taylor, Moss, when all these guys are getting older and it a decision do you pay them the 10 million or cut them? And when you cut them, yeah you may not pay the 10 million all in one year, but you still have to pay it over two year period. Are they going to do that with everyone? Is everyone going to be willing to renegotiate there contract? Dont think that every person here is loyal to this franchise because that is in no way the case. Samuels refused to rework his deal until his contract was up. They decided to pay him the 9 million the last year of his deal, but that was because they had to let players go, rework some deals here and there, which is all fine and dandy if other players agree to do it. This is all on assumption that players are willing to do these things, and Samuels is an example that no everyone is going to do it. Dont worry fellas, when all this happens I will hopefully be out here to say I dont you so. It may be 3 years, 5 years however many years, but it will happen. You cant keep putting off the payment of these contracts forever.


You know, you all questioning what a capologist does, is like questioning Bill Gates on Microsoft. Now you are going to say I am questioning Vinny, Well, tell me somebody that is going to come out and say his business is in 3 years going to have to make major cuts, cut costs and we are going to struggle for the 3 or 4 years, but we'll be back. Nobody, they will say down the end that we have plan, everything is great, we are thriving, ENRON, ring a bell. I am using that as an example of people who run businesses not telling you truth about what is going on. But, I guess Vinny, Danny and the minions always tell the truth, I forgot they are the gods, the greatest management ever assembled, the greatest owner and yes men ever, thats why our best record is 8-8 in 8 years.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

I just had to come back and see what you people had to say about me and my post regarding the cap. Of course I supply the articles that show how teams run into the problems they do. And of course, the Redskins are above all other 31 teams and have a magical cap that no one else understands and no one else in the league has figured out. I forgot that most of our stuff is done in fantasy land, what am I thinking? You wanted proof of where I get my info, I gave it to you and you say that its not worth anything, that absolutely cracks me up. This is from a CAPOLOGIST, who does this, who knows the cap. How you and everyone else can discredit a capologist is beyond me. Of course Vinney and Dannys minions are going to say what they say. You quoted a redskin article. Are they going to come out and say we are mortgaging our future every year by handling contract this way, NO, HELL NO. they are going to say it, we have a plan, 3 year plan. Well , yeah, all these players they have now are young. and they can rework the deals to create cap room for upcoming years. But what are they going to do when these players are getting old and have to be cut, because that is what they are going to have to do. They are not going to be able to pay these backloaded deals. LaVar is a perfect example, 12 million, now you can rework it to save for the next 3 years, but when that 3 years is up, rework again? you have to pay the contracts eventually, You cannot run from it. Ask 49ers, Cowboys, Titans. You have to pay these off eventually, they dont go away, the debt just doesn't disappear. Like I said, maybe not next year or the year after, but when Portis, Arrington, Washington , Griffin, Taylor, Moss, when all these guys are getting older and it a decision do you pay them the 10 million or cut them? And when you cut them, yeah you may not pay the 10 million all in one year, but you still have to pay it over two year period. Are they going to do that with everyone? Is everyone going to be willing to renegotiate there contract? Dont think that every person here is loyal to this franchise because that is in no way the case. Samuels refused to rework his deal until his contract was up. They decided to pay him the 9 million the last year of his deal, but that was because they had to let players go, rework some deals here and there, which is all fine and dandy if other players agree to do it. This is all on assumption that players are willing to do these things, and Samuels is an example that no everyone is going to do it. Dont worry fellas, when all this happens I will hopefully be out here to say I dont you so. It may be 3 years, 5 years however many years, but it will happen. You cant keep putting off the payment of these contracts forever.


You know, you all questioning what a capologist does, is like questioning Bill Gates on Microsoft. Now you are going to say I am questioning Vinny, Well, tell me somebody that is going to come out and say his business is in 3 years going to have to make major cuts, cut costs and we are going to struggle for the 3 or 4 years, but we'll be back. Nobody, they will say down the end that we have plan, everything is great, we are thriving, ENRON, ring a bell. I am using that as an example of people who run businesses not telling you truth about what is going on. But, I guess Vinny, Danny and the minions always tell the truth, I forgot they are the gods, the greatest management ever assembled, the greatest owner and yes men ever, thats why our best record is 8-8 in 8 years.

Still.

You still don't get it man. I fully recognize that you have to eat the cap hit on a signing bonus. But you're just not grasping how it can be fit under the cap.

The cap doesn't sit at $85 million for eternity, you know. Next year it will be something between $92-$95 million. The next year (assuming the CBA gets reworked), it will be like $105 million. And the next year, close to $120 million.

When the cap grows like that you can afford to kick more bonus money down the road. Let's say, hypothetically, that this year the cap is $100 million and grows $10 million each year. Why would we eat a $5 million base salary this year, when it represents 5% of our cap, when we could spread it to later years when it will represent a smaller % of our cap?

Eating it all this year:
5/100 = 5%

Eating it gradually over 5 years:
1/100 = 1%
1/110 = 0.90%
1/120 = 0.83%
1/130 = 0.77%
1/140 = 0.71%

Total % = 4.23%

If you eat it all in year 1, you eat 5% of your cap that year. If you spread it evenly, you eat a smaller percentage of your cap. It's called leverage.

You talk like these capologist writers know what they're doing. THEY'RE WRITERS. Talk to someone with a finance or accounting background, we'll all tell you the same thing. The Skins are fine.