Commanders Post at The Warpath  

Home | Forums | Donate | Shop




Go Back   Commanders Post at The Warpath > Off-Topic Discussion > Debating with the enemy

Debating with the enemy Discuss politics, current events, and other hot button issues here.


2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Debating with the enemy


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-08-2012, 06:35 PM   #436
12thMan
MVP
 
12thMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: washington, D.C.
Posts: 11,460
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
Your also assuming GM would have gone under. The bailout only made it easier on GM I don't think they would have gone belly up without gov aid.
They would have most certainly gone under.
12thMan is offline  

Advertisements
Old 08-08-2012, 08:18 PM   #437
Slingin Sammy 33
Playmaker
 
Slingin Sammy 33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 4,347
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12thMan View Post
They would have most certainly gone under.
No, they would've restructured under existing bankruptcy laws. With the ability to completely rework the union contracts they'd be in a stronger position than they are today.
__________________
"I would bet.....(if), an angel fairy came down and said, '[You can have anything] in the world you would like to own,' I wouldn't be surprised if you said a football club and particularly the Washington Redskins.'' — Jack Kent Cooke, 1996.
Slingin Sammy 33 is offline  
Old 08-08-2012, 08:39 PM   #438
dmek25
MVP
 
dmek25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: lancaster,pa
Age: 63
Posts: 10,672
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

why do the republicans insist on attacking unions every chance they get?
__________________
"It's better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt."
courtesy of 53fan
dmek25 is offline  
Old 08-08-2012, 09:20 PM   #439
Giantone
Gamebreaker
 
Giantone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,988
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
No, they would've restructured under existing bankruptcy laws. With the ability to completely rework the union contracts they'd be in a stronger position than they are today.
The Unions had already made offers of help in any way they could.



UAW members approve General Motors concessions - USATODAY.com
__________________
....DISCLAIMER: All of my posts/threads are my expressed typed opinion and the reader is not to assume these comments are absolute fact, law, or truth unless otherwise stated in said post/thread.

Last edited by Giantone; 08-08-2012 at 09:26 PM.
Giantone is offline  
Old 08-09-2012, 10:39 AM   #440
12thMan
MVP
 
12thMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: washington, D.C.
Posts: 11,460
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
No, they would've restructured under existing bankruptcy laws. With the ability to completely rework the union contracts they'd be in a stronger position than they are today.
No, they needed a huge injection of capital as well and no one -- I mean no one -- was giving GM money. Credit was tight as you recall.

In the end the company did undergo a restructuring and the unions made huge concessions in the process. That's how the whole thing managed to work.
12thMan is offline  
Old 08-09-2012, 10:41 AM   #441
12thMan
MVP
 
12thMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: washington, D.C.
Posts: 11,460
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantone View Post
The Unions had already made offers of help in any way they could.



UAW members approve General Motors concessions - USATODAY.com
Exactly. The idea that the unions got their cake and ate too is patently false. Everyone had skin in the game.
12thMan is offline  
Old 08-09-2012, 10:49 AM   #442
firstdown
Living Legend
 
firstdown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: chesapeake, va
Age: 60
Posts: 15,817
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

The Unions only came to the table at the last minute to protect themself.

The vote comes before an expected Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection filing by GM (GM) on Monday. Bankruptcy experts say having the labor agreement in place will help move the process through court more quickly.
firstdown is offline  
Old 08-09-2012, 10:52 AM   #443
12thMan
MVP
 
12thMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: washington, D.C.
Posts: 11,460
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
The Unions only came to the table at the last minute to protect themself.

The vote comes before an expected Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection filing by GM (GM) on Monday. Bankruptcy experts say having the labor agreement in place will help move the process through court more quickly.
And??? What's wrong with that? Shouldn't they in fact protect themselves?
12thMan is offline  
Old 08-09-2012, 11:13 AM   #444
Slingin Sammy 33
Playmaker
 
Slingin Sammy 33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 4,347
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12thMan View Post
And??? What's wrong with that? Shouldn't they in fact protect themselves?
You either haven't read or chose to ignore the facts in the link with detail on the UAW bailout.

from my link: "
Before the bankruptcy, UAW members in Detroit made more than $70 an hour in wages and benefits — a major reason GM and Chrysler went under. The automakers also owed tens of billions to a UAW trust fund that provided gold-plated health benefits to the union’s retirees. In a normal bankruptcy, the UAW would be required to bring this compensation down to competitive rates. Bankruptcy law also calls for all unsecured creditors to receive equal treatment. That did not happen in Detroit.
In the bankruptcy, the union gave only minor concessions for existing workers. The union accepted huge cuts for new hires, but as the president’s former Car Czar admitted, “We did not ask any UAW member to take a cut in their pay.” As a result, GM still pays $56 an hour in wages and benefits, more than any of its foreign “transplant” competitors. Not adjusting labor costs to market rates costs taxpayers more than $4 billion.
The UAW’s trust fund also recovered far more of the money owed to it than other unsecured creditors did. At GM the UAW Trust collected $12.2 billion more than it would have had it been treated like the other unsecured creditors. At Chrysler the administration gave the UAW assets worth $9.2 billion. That was a much greater recovery than the secured creditors got — and the reason the UAW wound up with half of Chrysler.
General Motors further spent $1 billion to restore the pensions of UAW retirees at Delphi, a bankrupt former GM subsidiary, to their former levels. GM had no legal obligation to do so, and did not do the same for the pensions of retirees in other unions or those of non-union employees. Former administration officials have refused to co-operate with the inspector general’s investigation into whether the administration played a role in this decision.
Add these handouts up, and you find that the taxpayers spent $26.5 billion subsidizing the pay and benefits of UAW members. Obama gave the UAW more than the U.S. spends on foreign aid. The UAW subsidies account for the entire net cost of the bailout.
Generous compensation is good, but the taxpayers should not be on the hook for paying it. The average worker makes about $30 in pay and benefits. The administration spent the taxes paid by all Americans to preserve union pay in Detroit. That was not an auto bailout. It was a UAW bailout.

This was a BS pay-off to UAW, no other way to spin it.
__________________
"I would bet.....(if), an angel fairy came down and said, '[You can have anything] in the world you would like to own,' I wouldn't be surprised if you said a football club and particularly the Washington Redskins.'' — Jack Kent Cooke, 1996.
Slingin Sammy 33 is offline  
Old 08-09-2012, 11:32 AM   #445
12thMan
MVP
 
12thMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: washington, D.C.
Posts: 11,460
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
You either haven't read or chose to ignore the facts in the link with detail on the UAW bailout.

from my link: "
Before the bankruptcy, UAW members in Detroit made more than $70 an hour in wages and benefits — a major reason GM and Chrysler went under. The automakers also owed tens of billions to a UAW trust fund that provided gold-plated health benefits to the union’s retirees. In a normal bankruptcy, the UAW would be required to bring this compensation down to competitive rates. Bankruptcy law also calls for all unsecured creditors to receive equal treatment. That did not happen in Detroit.
In the bankruptcy, the union gave only minor concessions for existing workers. The union accepted huge cuts for new hires, but as the president’s former Car Czar admitted, “We did not ask any UAW member to take a cut in their pay.” As a result, GM still pays $56 an hour in wages and benefits, more than any of its foreign “transplant” competitors. Not adjusting labor costs to market rates costs taxpayers more than $4 billion.
The UAW’s trust fund also recovered far more of the money owed to it than other unsecured creditors did. At GM the UAW Trust collected $12.2 billion more than it would have had it been treated like the other unsecured creditors. At Chrysler the administration gave the UAW assets worth $9.2 billion. That was a much greater recovery than the secured creditors got — and the reason the UAW wound up with half of Chrysler.
General Motors further spent $1 billion to restore the pensions of UAW retirees at Delphi, a bankrupt former GM subsidiary, to their former levels. GM had no legal obligation to do so, and did not do the same for the pensions of retirees in other unions or those of non-union employees. Former administration officials have refused to co-operate with the inspector general’s investigation into whether the administration played a role in this decision.
Add these handouts up, and you find that the taxpayers spent $26.5 billion subsidizing the pay and benefits of UAW members. Obama gave the UAW more than the U.S. spends on foreign aid. The UAW subsidies account for the entire net cost of the bailout.
Generous compensation is good, but the taxpayers should not be on the hook for paying it. The average worker makes about $30 in pay and benefits. The administration spent the taxes paid by all Americans to preserve union pay in Detroit. That was not an auto bailout. It was a UAW bailout.

This was a BS pay-off to UAW, no other way to spin it.
Socialism?
12thMan is offline  
Old 08-09-2012, 11:35 AM   #446
NC_Skins
Gamebreaker
 
NC_Skins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,420
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
Before the bankruptcy, UAW members in Detroit made more than $70 an hour in wages and benefits — a major reason GM and Chrysler went under.
Talk about spin. I love how corporate/capitalist sympathizers point to the labor costs as a "major" reason for GM and Chrysler going under when in reality, the reason they were going under is because they had a inferior product. This falls in the range of design, quality, and marketing. The only thing the American car companies compete in are the trucks. That's about it.
__________________
"So let me get this straight. We have the event of the year on TV with millions watching around the world... and people want a punt, pass, and kick competition to be the halftime entertainment?? Folks, don't quit your day jobs."- Matty
NC_Skins is offline  
Old 08-09-2012, 11:38 AM   #447
Dirtbag59
Naega jeil jal naga
 
Dirtbag59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, Georgia From: Silver Spring, Maryland
Age: 39
Posts: 14,750
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
Acshulaly the working adults one is wrong. It's reduced pay longer hours.
__________________
"It's nice to be important, but its more important to be nice."
- Scooter

"I feel like Dirtbag has been slowly and methodically trolling the board for a month or so now."
- FRPLG
Dirtbag59 is offline  
Old 08-09-2012, 11:40 AM   #448
12thMan
MVP
 
12thMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: washington, D.C.
Posts: 11,460
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
Talk about spin. I love how corporate/capitalist sympathizers point to the labor costs as a "major" reason for GM and Chrysler going under when in reality, the reason they were going under is because they had a inferior product. This falls in the range of design, quality, and marketing. The only thing the American car companies compete in are the trucks. That's about it.

Nooooo...it was those big bad mean unions that forced GM to roll out those fuel inefficient gas guzzling automobiles.
12thMan is offline  
Old 08-09-2012, 11:56 AM   #449
Slingin Sammy 33
Playmaker
 
Slingin Sammy 33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 4,347
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12thMan View Post
Socialism?
Good one.
__________________
"I would bet.....(if), an angel fairy came down and said, '[You can have anything] in the world you would like to own,' I wouldn't be surprised if you said a football club and particularly the Washington Redskins.'' — Jack Kent Cooke, 1996.
Slingin Sammy 33 is offline  
Old 08-10-2012, 09:18 AM   #450
NC_Skins
Gamebreaker
 
NC_Skins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,420
Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)




__________________
"So let me get this straight. We have the event of the year on TV with millions watching around the world... and people want a punt, pass, and kick competition to be the halftime entertainment?? Folks, don't quit your day jobs."- Matty
NC_Skins is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We have no official affiliation with the Washington Commanders or the NFL.
Page generated in 5.40529 seconds with 10 queries