Trayvon Martin Case

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

If an 80 year old is attacked by a teenager I'd like the 80 year old to be armed.

There are a lot of people who can kill with a single punch/kick. More amateurish attempts can take longer to kill, affording the victim the opportunity to fight back without being physically even to the aggressor.

rat - i really like your somewhat different view of the world but .. if, in trying to make your point, you need to set the parameters as an "80 yr old vs a teenager"or "me vs chuck norris". . . . .maybe your point is a little weak.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

I have a big problem accepting the use of deadly force on an unarmed combatant. Just bc you are losing the fist fight doesnt mean you get to shoot them.

I agree. BUT, there is a difference between "losing a fist fight" and fear that you are being beaten to death. You're on the ground, you've had your nose smashed, you're head is being slammed against the concrete and you taste blood in your throat. You've called for help and the person beating you doesn't stop and their is no one there to pull him off. May I please pull a gun now or should I wait until after I lose conscienceness?

I won and lost a few fistfights back in the day - you and I am both know, however, that there is a point where "losing a fist fight" turns into a deadly beat down.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

Great. Now JR becomes the WP Legal Analyst.

Not until I am put on retainer.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

joe - i havent had a chance to follow the trial live .. im actually pretty much following it from your synopsis at this point ..... if the jury find for the defense after hearing and considering all the evidence and testimony then i can live with the verdict but .... i hope forensic evidence concludes that martin never had control of the gun and the jury can hang their guilty verdict hat on that bc i dont believe a person should be able to use deadly force on an unarmed person.
either way, one side of this is going to be very upset.

is there a lesser included charge in play? man 2?

I have no problem with the use of deadly force if you are being beaten to death. If you're being overpowered, you have the right to defend yourself. [NOTE: If you initiated the fight and are simply losing, no -- deadly force is not okay. Even if you start a fight, the other person doesn't have the right to beat you to death - you can protect yourself but you're right to claim self-defense is severely impaired].

As to the lesser charge, I don't know for sure but would expect manslaughter to be available if they don't find 2nd degree murder. Right now, not sure they even have that.

What they have is: After a verbal confrontation, somehow a fight started, the two were rolling around and, at some point, Zimmerman is his back with Martin giving him the "ground and pound" while Zimmerman has injuries that could put a reasonable person in fear of their life.

Not sure I would send someone to jail on that.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I have no problem with the use of deadly force if you are being beaten to death. If you're being overpowered, you have the right to defend yourself. [NOTE: If you initiated the fight and are simply losing, no -- deadly force is not okay. Even if you start a fight, the other person doesn't have the right to beat you to death - you can protect yourself but you're right to claim self-defense is severely impaired].

As to the lesser charge, I don't know for sure but would expect manslaughter to be available if they don't find 2nd degree murder. Right now, not sure they even have that.

What they have is: zimmerman following martin, martin telling a friend on the phone that a man is following him and that he is scared, After a verbal confrontation, somehow a fight started, the two were rolling around and, at some point, Zimmerman is his back with Martin giving him the "ground and pound" while Zimmerman has injuries that could put a reasonable person in fear of their life.

Not sure I would send someone to jail on that.

i think we have slightly more than that. i added some more in bold.

plus, to my knowledge we have 2 eyewitnesses saying they believe the larger person was on top (Z being the larger person in their judgment) and one witness saying he believes the lighter skinned person was on the bottom.

if martin was giving zimmerman the ground and pound so hard that zimmerman was fearing for his life, how did zimmerman manage to unholster his firearm and cleanly discharge it right into martin's chest?

if zimmerman was able to do all they above acts seemingly cleanly, was there no other less deadly alternatives?

if martin was on top of him, id imagine a long struggle for the gun would ensue. . . .

joe - watch the reenactment video zimmerman did for the news a few days after and tell me if his version of events would hold water. just too many leaps of faith imo from what ive seen.

[Gary84Clark]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

i think we have slightly more than that. i added some more in bold.

plus, to my knowledge we have 2 eyewitnesses saying they believe the larger person was on top (Z being the larger person in their judgment) and one witness saying he believes the lighter skinned person was on the bottom.

if martin was giving zimmerman the ground and pound so hard that zimmerman was fearing for his life, how did zimmerman manage to unholster his firearm and cleanly discharge it right into martin's chest?

if zimmerman was able to do all they above acts seemingly cleanly, was there no other less deadly alternatives?

if martin was on top of him, id imagine a long struggle for the gun would ensue. . . .

joe - watch the reenactment video zimmerman did for the news a few days after and tell me if his version of events would hold water. just too many leaps of faith imo from what ive seen.

I agree with this analysis.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

i think we have slightly more than that. i added some more in bold.

plus, to my knowledge we have 2 eyewitnesses saying they believe the larger person was on top (Z being the larger person in their judgment) and one witness saying he believes the lighter skinned person was on the bottom.

The two witnesses had Zimmerman on top after the gunshot fired which conflicts with how Martin's body was found (face down) or simply could mean Martin rolled over after Martin collapsed from being shot. Also, the photo they were shown of Martin for size comparison to Zimmerman was Martin in his football uniform that looked like it was from when he was 14 and had no reference for TM's height or size - It was clearly NOT a photo of Martin at or near the time of the shooting. On the other hand, the guy 15 feet away identified Z as being on the bottom by the color of his jacket and said Z's arms were free while TM had him in the "ground and pound".

Originally Posted by over the mountain

if martin was giving zimmerman the ground and pound so hard that zimmerman was fearing for his life, how did zimmerman manage to unholster his firearm and cleanly discharge it right into martin's chest?

if zimmerman was able to do all they above acts seemingly cleanly, was there no other less deadly alternatives?

if martin was on top of him, id imagine a long struggle for the gun would ensue. . . .

How? I can imagine any number of ways. Been on the bottom of a fight and needed to pull a knife while being choked? It's a brawl my man. Shit happens. "you would imagine a long struggle"? Martin is angry, is staring him in the eye as he does the "pound" and momentarily loses track of Z's hands; taking advantage of the momentary lapse of his opponent, Z fumbles his gun out and gets a lucky shot off. Not saying that's how it happened but it's one of a myriad of ways a moment can turn a fight.

Originally Posted by over the mountain

joe - watch the reenactment video zimmerman did for the news a few days after and tell me if his version of events would hold water. just too many leaps of faith imo from what ive seen.

I did when it was first posted. Can't remember what it said or my impressions. If you can post hte link, great. Otherwise, I'll try to find it and watch it again. It will be interesting to compare to the testimony that is now coming out.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

How? I can imagine any number of ways. Been on the bottom of a fight and needed to pull a knife while being choked? It's a brawl my man. Shit happens. "you would imagine a long struggle"? Martin is angry, is staring him in the eye as he does the "pound" and momentarily loses track of Z's hands; taking advantage of the momentary lapse of his opponent, Z fumbles his gun out and gets a lucky shot off. Not saying that's how it happened but it's one of a myriad of ways a moment can turn a fight.

you said Mr. Good's testimony was very helpful for the defense but ... he testified that it appeared the lighter skinned person was on the bottom and that PUNCHES were being thrown but he couldnt tell if the PUNCHES were landing and he also sd just bc someone is on top doesnt mean the person on the bottom couldnt be punching back . . . (technically i think Mr. Good qualified "punches" as being movement of arms). I dont think Mr. Good's testimony supports Zimmerman's assertion that he was getting his skull bashed in and he thought he was going to die ..

but this comes to what i am starting to think is the whole issue of the case:

Is it justifiable to shoot someone because you are losing a fist fight?

I clearly say "hell no". Zimmerman voluntarily put himself in this position. he wanted to act like a tough guy . . but when the moment of truth arrived, he was really a wimp.

we cant have citizens totting guns, creating confrontational situations and then allow them to kill others because they were losing the confrontation.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

plus, to my knowledge we have 2 eyewitnesses saying they believe the larger person was on top (Z being the larger person in their judgment) and one witness saying he believes the lighter skinned person was on the bottom.

This could be significant, but wasn't one witness basing his judgement off seeing the pictures of Trayvon as a kid and thinking the guy on top had been a lot bigger than that? And the other was talking about Zimmerman being on top after he shot Martin?

Some co-workers and I saw the bit recently where a witness says he actually saw Martin on top of Zimmerman pounding him.

The thing that gets me is, what's important is who attacked who. And the ONE witness I've seen so far that gives any clue as to how the confrontation started was the "girlfriend". I think the prosecution would have been better off not bringing her into the case. She was a horrible character witness for Trayvon.

[JoeRedskin]

I am just reading the blogger posts from here: Witness: Zimmerman, Martin in MMA-style fight | HLNtv.com

If you scroll down, you'll see the almost minute by minute posting. Again, a lot of what is happening is getting lost b/c we can't see or hear the witnesses but the blogger seems to be getting the crux of it.

[over the mountain]

oh ... i followed the min by min postings on the first day. was helpful.

[RedskinRat]

Zimmerman should be banned from owning or possessing a handgun (Firearm), for life. No more.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

Zimmerman should be banned from owning or possessing a handgun (Firearm), for life. No more.

Disagree. If Zimmerman's found not guilty, maybe he should carry more often for his own protection.

SMH if the rest of the trial continues like this, and there are STILL riots if Zimmerman walks.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Disagree. If Zimmerman's found not guilty, maybe he should carry more often for his own protection.

You make a good point, he'll need security detail for life.

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

SMH if the rest of the trial continues like this, and there are STILL riots if Zimmerman walks.

There will be, the court of popular opinion are against Zimmerman. Just watch Nancy Grace for a sense of how repugnant some of the reporting is. Not while you're eating, obviously.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

There will be, the court of popular opinion are against Zimmerman. Just watch Nancy Grace for a sense of how repugnant some of the reporting is. Not while you're eating, obviously.

Even if I am not eating, Nancy Grace makes me lose my breakfest, lunch or dinner.