Should Mike Shanahan be fired?

[SmootSmack]

I, or anyone other mod, could lock this. But a) I know what the reaction will be and b) A similar thread will quickly be created

My advice, just let this thread naturally die

[Mechanix544]

Thats not a rant, never said it was a problem. Putting together all the facets of a game into wins are Shanahans problem. Statistcally, he's always done alright, this is just the first year he has done alright here. I'll wait and see though. I hope he changes my mind, but not all teams above .500 are thought to have strong positions all over the field though. But somehow, those teams still win games...............Just curious that the same doesn't happen here. It takes a 4-5 year buildup to be able to even think about being over .500 and field a winning team? That is what I have a problem with, not the offense. Maybe its you that doesn't get the point, as you like to say.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Mechanix544

Thats not a rant, never said it was a problem. Putting together all the facets of a game into wins are Shanahans problem. Statistcally, he's always done alright, this is just the first year he has done alright here. I'll wait and see though. I hope he changes my mind, but not all teams above .500 are thought to have strong positions all over the field though. But somehow, those teams still win games...............Just curious that the same doesn't happen here. It takes a 4-5 year buildup to be able to even think about being over .500 and field a winning team? That is what I have a problem with, not the offense. Maybe its you that doesn't get the point, as you like to say.

Or maybe your point is a little foggy. I didn't see you mention the D at all, just going on and on about RG3.

He's great no doubt, but he can't do it alone.

[Mechanix544]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Or maybe your point is a little foggy. I didn't see you mention the D at all, just going on and on about RG3.

He's great no doubt, but he can't do it alone.

Aren't you on the side of the arguement that gives examples of the Giants, packers and the Patriots as reasons why defense is not necessarily all that important? Maybe not you who quoted it, but many people have given those examples as why we could still win. Even though we are not, and now its due to not getting any help from the Defense. Correct me if I am wrong, but this defense is almost ALL Shanahans men, over 3 years worth of his men, and its now last in the league. I doubt that even changing the coordinator is going to be of much help, so again, since defense is now very necessary to win and a very important cog (excuse), we are again 3 years away from fixing THIS problem.

Point I am making is that if Shanahan was to come in here and team build, he has absolutely neglected the other side of the ball. We are now again 3 years away from fielding a team decent enough to be considered a contender due to the absolutely horrid play of our team on that side of the ball. With this logic, very often applied during these types of "Shanahan, Haslett, To fire or not to Fire" discussions, once we fix one side, the other side will be old, ineffective and abysmal, and we are right back to square one. Being just a couple years away. Its a football team, and if a coach is worth his weight in whatever, he gets his players to perform or he doesn't. They all have the same cap, the same draft picks, and the same rules. Its the coaches that are different, and this coach can not keep up, and we will NEVER be a serious contender for anything as long as Mike Shanahan is here at the helm. Again, just my opinion, but I think its fairly valid to say a coach who hasn't done squat in the league as far as playoffs and sustained success is concerned other than the times he has a uber elite QB behind center just cannot get it done without that Uber talent. He has proven it time and time again, we were just so desperate to get rid of zorn that we all figured he would be an upgrade. Sure Seems like he isn't. I haven't seen much of anything different other than our youth and QB, still losing, but now with the worst defense in the league and a patchwork OLine that is overachieving due to a ultra mobile QB. And this whole thing about the mood and pride at Redskins park has changed in the last 3 years, ok.

I'll take winning over a positive attitude anyday, thanks. Until that happy sunshiny feeling translates into sustained success on the field, call me a non believer in anything Shanahan is selling.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Mechanix544

Aren't you on the side of the arguement that gives examples of the Giants, packers and the Patriots as reasons why defense is not necessarily all that important? Maybe not you who quoted it, but many people have given those examples as why we could still win. Even though we are not, and now its due to not getting any help from the Defense. Correct me if I am wrong, but this defense is almost ALL Shanahans men, over 3 years worth of his men, and its now last in the league. I doubt that even changing the coordinator is going to be of much help, so again, since defense is now very necessary to win and a very important cog (excuse), we are again 3 years away from fixing THIS problem.

Point I am making is that if Shanahan was to come in here and team build, he has absolutely neglected the other side of the ball. We are now again 3 years away from fielding a team decent enough to be considered a contender due to the absolutely horrid play of our team on that side of the ball. With this logic, very often applied during these types of "Shanahan, Haslett, To fire or not to Fire" discussions, once we fix one side, the other side will be old, ineffective and abysmal, and we are right back to square one. Being just a couple years away. Its a football team, and if a coach is worth his weight in whatever, he gets his players to perform or he doesn't. They all have the same cap, the same draft picks, and the same rules. Its the coaches that are different, and this coach can not keep up, and we will NEVER be a serious contender for anything as long as Mike Shanahan is here at the helm. Again, just my opinion, but I think its fairly valid to say a coach who hasn't done squat in the league as far as playoffs and sustained success is concerned other than the times he has a uber elite QB behind center just cannot get it done without that Uber talent. He has proven it time and time again, we were just so desperate to get rid of zorn that we all figured he would be an upgrade. Sure Seems like he isn't. I haven't seen much of anything different other than our youth and QB, still losing, but now with the worst defense in the league and a patchwork OLine that is overachieving due to a ultra mobile QB. And this whole thing about the mood and pride at Redskins park has changed in the last 3 years, ok.

I'll take winning over a positive attitude anyday, thanks. Until that happy sunshiny feeling translates into sustained success on the field, call me a non believer in anything Shanahan is selling.

Not sure I ever said that. Difference with those D's is they can either bring pressure or create a lot of turnovers.

We're mostly on the same page, I don't think it will take 3 years to fix the D though.

[Richmond Redskin]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Not sure I ever said that. Difference with those D's is they can either bring pressure or create a lot of turnovers.

We're mostly on the same page, I don't think it will take 3 years to fix the D though.

I think we have at least one more year of a struggling defense. Basically we have RAK and Carriker back, but both off of big injuries. We need time, money and talent and we are short on all three. I think unless we have some players really step up we are a little hamstrung this year and next.

We have some picks next draft and hopefully can find a few starters in that mix.

[Meks]

D is an issue, kicking was an issue, seems thats on a better track and if it had been through the first few weeks we might be singing a different tune... so theres lots of blame to go around, not just Mike ... like i've said... some of our d players and haslett would be the first to go IMO

[NC_Skins]

Still wonder why coaches like Bill Walsh and Bill Belichek get all the glory for winning their SBs even though they've never won without their HoF QBs, but Mike gets zero credit for winning 2 SBs. They give the credit to Elway.



You can't have it both ways. Either Walsh,McCarthy, Tomlin, Johnson, BB, and Mike were ALL carried by their QBs or they weren't.


Fact is, nobody can point to me in the past 2 decades of a coach winning the SB without a stud at the Qb spot. There were only 2 times these past 20 years it hasn't happened.

1) Baltimore Ravens
2) Tampa Bay Bucs


I imagine you can figure out what those two teams had in common.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Shanahan will never agree to that, nor will he agree to keeping his hands off the defense. This is the crux of the problem with him, it's all or nothing.

What head coach would agree to having no influence over the defense or personnel decisions?

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

What head coach would agree to having no influence over the defense or personnel decisions?

One who wanted to keep his job

I recognize you tend to see things in extremes, or black and white etc, but there's nuance involved here. Sean Peyton for example is an HC and offensive genius, but I've heard many referrences to how he gave his d-coordinator and GM the reigns on defensive personnel. In fact, going into one draft I specifically remember hearing talk about how Peyton was "giving the d what it wanted."

[MTK]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

What head coach would agree to having no influence over the defense or personnel decisions?

Zorn.

And that worked just swell.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Zorn.

And that worked just swell.

Zorn 2008 8-8 (PA) D-6 (PS) O-28
Zorn 2009 4-12 (PA) D-18 (PS) O-26
Shanahan 2010 6-10 (PA) D-21 (PS) O-25
Shanahan 2011 5-11 (PA) D-21 (PS) O-26

According to our friend Skinsfanok, "Stats don't lie."

I don't always go by stats myself as I think there are variables to consider such as Zorn wasn't going through a defensive scheme change like Shanahan. In fact I'm not sure Zorn had any imput with the defense whatsoever. On the other side...Shanny handpicked his DC and scheme and has more power in his position than Zorn ever dreamed of.
Now...I am very happy with the fact that we have RG3..we actually have drafted oline since Mike has been here...the oline is playing well..we're an exciting team scoring points..we have finally become a young team...I expect our FA receivers to do very well...we have a running game with a fine young rookie...love the LB's we've drafted. Love alot of things Mike has done for this team. I voted to wait until the end of the year and decide...but if he doesn't hire a DC that can turn this defense into an asset instead of a liability and leav"e the guy alone to do his thing then I'm ready for someone else to takeover this team.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Zorn.

And that worked just swell.

Again, extremes (skins, lol) vs nuance. Zorn vs Sean Peyton.

Sorry Matty, this place is better than Extreme Skins but I couldn't resist

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by Mechanix544

The fact is, EVERYONE can see that RG3 is going to be an absolute lock of an elite QB. Shoot, he already is. If he can do this well in his rookie season, look out world. Our point is, even with RG3's stupendous games and performances, far and away better than even the most optimistic of redskins fans ever expected, we are still winning 33% of our games in year 3, are a week away from being 3-6 and almost out of the race in a weak NFC East. We have no depth in the secondary, and I really hope we keep winning the game of russian roulette with our Olines health. Getting off point a little, but here's the thing.

With the talent at QB, ANY coach could be 3-5. RG3 is making it VERY easy for Shanahan, and we are still not winning. We are in the cellar of the NFCE yet again, with the cowboys and the eagles both ripe for the taking. Mike Shanahans inability to take advantage of certain situations, and then blaming other people or injuries or whoever he wants to pin it on is wearing thin, especially when you currently hold one of the hottest, if not THE hottest weapon in the entire NFL. With RG3, I would say many coaches could be 5-3 or even 6-2 at this point, maybe even 7-1, RG3 has done that well. It takes a special kind of coach to have RG3, and still lose like we have been losing. And for the renowned Shanahan discipline, ummmm, what discipline? I can attribute 2 losses directly to horrible discipline, idiot penalties and lack of focus. And one on a kicker that HE himself brought in, yet another Shanahan signing, which blew up in his face. The guy makes questionable move after questionable move, keeps the skins in the cellar of the NFCE, yet he needs more time. Time to what? To tutor RG3? Gimme a break. Im tired of giving him a pass, ESPECIALLY now that he has his QB, and the team continues its march down Underperform Street.

Dude im on your side. I was saying exactly what you just said. If you back up Smoot had said I think you are missing our point. I than was saying - no your point was - but he aint winning with rg 3 either. Perfectly good argument and must have taken you a while to get that all out but you are preaching to the choir. Lol.


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[punch it in]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Just for clarity, I would trust that the mods - as always - have the discretion to not go ban crazy and also not be NFL refs and get the 2nd guy.

If someone were to come in yelling in every frickin post of his/hers how awesome KS is and how that play was drawn up for a 99 yard TD, if only Morris had cut left, or other ridiculous things than that would be as open to the in-season ban as someone who claims that 1 high turnover game out of 7 is the result of KS's stale playcalling, or citing for the 100th time in 101 posts that MS only won SB's with Elway.

I also don't expect Matty or Smoot to really do something that draconian as an in-season ban, but when 7% of respondents believe something, and one or two of those 7% take it on themselves to put it out there in every post regardless of thread subject matter, then I think its fair for the other 93%
to want the mods to keep the Warpath "Actively refreshing" not "tired and depressing"

I totally agree about the thread hi jacking. Which is why this one must remain open. Its a final resting place for all of the redundant arguments from both sides. There are alot more than 7 percent who could want him gone next week if we lose to the lowly panthers, let alone after the season. The other thing i have noticed is that ALOT of other threads get hijacked when the "apologists" start something with an off topic comment like - " yeah like maybe we should blame MS for this too" / sarcasm - lol". That happens ALL the time. You want to say the "haters" just bust into threads Shanny bashing for no reason - but it is ALWAYS predecessed by a little spark like the comment above. Always.


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