Here Goes Nothing ...

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i think the one major differece between iraq and kosovo is that the united states pretty much created the mess that iraq is right now. it was almost like stepping on a bees nest. we really stirred all the nuts up. i know one thing, there sure is alot more hatred in the world against the united states since we invaded iraq

We certainly screwed up in Iraq, but that doesn't really answer the question about what to do in the future. The problems in Kosovo etc. and Iraq and very similar but, for unknown reasons, people think that we should address such problems by intervening in the former cases and withdrawing in the latter cases.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I have a question for anyone to answer:

So a lot of people think it is almost comical that the Bush administration has failed to recognize that Iraq is in the midst of a full-blown civil war. I certainly agree that Iraq is in a full-blown civil war (albeit one international actors on both sides). Iraq's civil war consists of ethnic cleansing on highest scale - Shia killing Sunni, Sunni killing Shia, neighborhoods being "cleansed," etc. However, isn't this the same kind of civil war that many wanted us to get involved in in Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosovo? If so, what accounts for saying that we should get out of Iraq because they are in a civil war and saying that we should get involved in those other places?

To my knowledge Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosova neither had the desire nor the wherewithal to cleanse the planet of infidels, starting with the USA. Obviously, factions in this current action have demonstrated differently. Our own survival as we know it, may in some ways hinge on what the outcome is in Iraq

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Hog1

To my knowledge Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosova neither had the desire nor the wherewithal to cleanse the planet of infidels, starting with the USA. Obviously, factions in this current action have demonstrated differently. Our own survival as we know it, may in some ways hinge on what the outcome is in Iraq

actually, it probably won't. after the invasion, the various middle-eastern states and factions didn't unify against america, they starting infighting amongst themselves. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to pull out and just hope everything works itself out, cause that's just not likely, but it's probably not entirely fire and brimstone for the world either way.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by That Guy

actually, it probably won't. after the invasion, the various middle-eastern states and factions didn't unify against america, they starting infighting amongst themselves. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to pull out and just hope everything works itself out, cause that's just not likely, but it's probably not entirely fire and brimstone for the world either way.

While I realize they did not unify against the US.
It is generally, if not universally accepted that the countries in question, harbor, if not support those groups that have, and are targeting the US, and it's allies. These groups make no attempt to disguise their intentions as a whole.
From that standpoint, it benefits us to maintain a presence in the region, and thus a force in an outcome, that we can............"live" with. If we adopt a wait and see, non-interference policy, we may well be inviting a host of 9-11 style incidents

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Hog1

While I realize they did not unify against the US.
It is generally, if not universally accepted that the countries in question, harbor, if not support those groups that have, and are targeting the US, and it's allies. These groups make no attempt to disguise their intentions as a whole.
From that standpoint, it benefits us to maintain a presence in the region, and thus a force in an outcome, that we can............"live" with. If we adopt a wait and see, non-interference policy, we may well be inviting a host of 9-11 style incidents

i don't disagree with that. right now we have much more military freedom in afghanistan and iraq and more leverage on pakistan to deal with such groups than we did before.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Again, I don't have anything to add besides a comment. I think it's a lot on the insane side that people can be convinced to kill their countrymen over the slight difference between Shia and Sunni. That's like Methodists fighting Baptists. While one might argue that even a minute difference in a religion is HUGE to each side, it's still a LOT of crazy and not worth killing over.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Again, I don't have anything to add besides a comment. I think it's a lot on the insane side that people can be convinced to kill their countrymen over the slight difference between Shia and Sunni. That's like Methodists fighting Baptists. While one might argue that even a minute difference in a religion is HUGE to each side, it's still a LOT of crazy and not worth killing over.

Seriously. What is even sadder is that we watch music videos here, in Iraq videos of beheadings, attacks on Iraqi Police and U.S. forces, and other generally sadistic sh-t are extremely marketable. When you're country is getting its rocks off on beheadings, you know you're headed straight down the toilet. If you have ever seen one of those videos, you will think very differently about what kind of enemy we are facing and how far we have to go to turn the place into a stable democracy.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Again, I don't have anything to add besides a comment. I think it's a lot on the insane side that people can be convinced to kill their countrymen over the slight difference between Shia and Sunni. That's like Methodists fighting Baptists. While one might argue that even a minute difference in a religion is HUGE to each side, it's still a LOT of crazy and not worth killing over.

tell that to the people of ireland :/.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by That Guy

tell that to the people of ireland :/.

That was the one I was thinking of as a possible exception. STILL though, that can be said for a lot of religions in the past. Catholics and Protestants have largely different beliefs when you look at sub groups.

Shia and Sunni are subgroups of Islam, and yet those minute differences are enough to feel justified in blowing up yourself, innocents and more.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Oh, I've seen one. One of my buddies is extremely traumatized from being over there and came to my house one day showing me that shit. I almost puked from one of them.

There is NO regard for human life.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Oh, I've seen one. One of my buddies is extremely traumatized from being over there and came to my house one day showing me that shit. I almost puked from one of them.

There is NO regard for human life.

Yup. I made the mistake of watching ONE video and I will never watch another. I also had the misfortune of reading the NYT article about how the citizens of Fallujah burned some U.S. contractors and hung their bodies from strings on a bridge. Those people (obviously the insurgents and some of their sympathizers and not all Iraqis) have SERIOUS issues that will never be resolved.

I used to laugh at my girlfriend's brother when he referred to terrorist-types as "barbarians." He sounded like a 5 year old by using such a word to actually describe people. Let's just say that I'm not laughing anymore.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Yeah, I saw that on TV. It also showed children stomping the bodies and spitting on them.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Yeah, I saw that on TV. It also showed children stomping the bodies and spitting on them.

Didn't see that, I just read the article in the NYT. The only video I saw was of people dragging the bodies of U.S. troops through the streets, little kids holding AK-47s cheering and yelling "Allah Akbar" (God is great), the Iraqis cutting off the soldiers' heads while again yelling "Allah Akbar," and proceeding to flay open the chests of the soldiers. Needless to say, I never watched another video.

I didn't even want to go near the videos of the insurgents cutting off the heads of various contractors, journalists, and aid workers. I did, however, watch some video clips from Al Jazeera showing some "scholars intelligently discussing" whether it was right or wrong to kill such non-combatants. As you might expect, the consensus was (a) it was sad, but okay because these people were part of an occupying force, and (b) America is bad and the root of all evil.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

I know it's really cynical, but after 9/11 when the Iraq crisis was heating up, I thought we should have told Saddam, "Let's let bygones be bygones and cooperate. You don't like the Islamic radicals and neither do we. Maybe we can do business again." He was a really bad guy, but the Islamic militants are worse.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I know it's really cynical, but after 9/11 when the Iraq crisis was heating up, I thought we should have told Saddam, "Let's let bygones be bygones and cooperate. You don't like the Islamic radicals and neither do we. Maybe we can do business again." He was a really bad guy, but the Islamic militants are worse.

That would be nice in a perfect world, but can you imagine the diplomatic crises that would ensue from nations like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia?