Is Russell really better than Quinn?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

More coincidence, Young/Russell are drafted above Leinart/Quinn because they have higher upside. They have more potential to be better once they learn the pro game. Young/Russell were not on National TV as much in college so they did have as much hype. They did not play in pro style offenses in college.
I think similarities are many and my analogy is pretty good.

Ok, but what is upside? Russell either will be really good, or he won't. There is no mythical concept of potential of which he will only hit under certain circumstances. Upside just simply refers to the growth that each prospect will make over the course of his NFL career. Every player grows. Is there any reason at all to expect Russell to grow at a different rate than any other QB? I don't understand why this would occur.

JaMarcus Russell will be 'X' good. This is a simplification of a simple concept. He's only going to be as good as he is. So what is Russell's "X"? Is it Ryan Leaf? Rex Grossman? Patrick Ramsey? Byron Leftwich? Carson Palmer? Daunte Culpepper? I believe he will be the next Rex Grossman. That is his ultimate potential. Until proven otherwise, its' reasonable to make a case for him being the next Donovan McNabb. That could possibly be his potnetial.

But to say he has "upside", you might as well be telling me that he's also got two arms and two legs. Tell us where you think he will be in his prime. He's either going to be better than Quinn or worse than Quinn. Saying he has upside is neither analysis nor a prediction. Maybe he will turn out to be a better QB than Quinn, but certainly that would be because he was the better prospect all along...not because of a belief that he grew differently than every other quarterback, correct?

Regarding your comment about Young coming into a decent Titan D, the Titans were reeling at 0-3 when Young stepped in for a veteran QB with super bowl experience. A rookie stepping in to a 0-3 team and he made it work. Many of the wins were directly related to Young's great play, the 50 yard run in the Texans overtime win for example. You should not take credit away form V. Young, he played well enough to win all of those games and almost get them in the playoffs after starting 0-3 is remarkable for any QB much less a rookie that was not supposed to be ready for the NFL.

Regarding who will be better in the NFL, Quinn or Russell? I hope they both succeed, the NFL has a shortage of good QB's. I am not sure why you and some others are rooting against Russell? My opinion is much more will play into what team they go to, the situation that team is in and the playing time they see, not so much their invidual talent. They are both good QB's.

Don't take credit away from Vince Young's teammates. I mean Young played the game consistently composed and focused for a rookie, like the good QB prospect he was. But he wasn't a good passer, and while his running was very effective, it wasn't as effective as he was given credit for. 0-3 doesn't tell you much, it was a three game sample with an inept QB (Collins). Young played about how you would expect from a dynamic rookie, and his teammates played some great football at times and kept the score close allowing one play to make the difference in a few games, and Young did his job. But VY's passing wasn't anything you wouldn't have expected from him as a rookie. He's still got a long way to go to get his team to the next level. Leinart was better in 2006 on a worse team last year. I'd bet the Cardinals are a better team than the Titans in 2007, and Leinart might be a pro bowler.

I'm not rooting against Russell in the slightest. I am rooting for Quinn. But I can asimilate them with past QB prospects based on college stats, and it doesn't look good for Russell. This is consistant with everything about him that seems like he shouldn't be a top pick. As Hooskins pointed out, he wasn't on the NFL's radar until January. Once he got on the NFL radar, he should have taken another year to prove that he belongs there like Quinn did. If Quinn had done what Russell did and left after his Jr. season, he wouldn't have been a good prospect either.

[dmek25]

the thing that makes me laugh is when people say Russell is a better athlete. guess who had the better 40 time? and the better vertical jump?

[Defensewins]

Who cares.
Who was the better QB last year in real games?
That is what should matter. Not sit ups/push ups and 40 times.
Vertical leap for a QB? It does not come into play for a Qb on a football field, unless he wants to do the the Lambeau leap.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Who cares.
Who was the better QB last year in real games?
That is what should matter. Not sit ups/push ups and 40 times.
Vertical leap for a QB? It does not come into play for a Qb on a football field, unless he wants to do the the Lambeau leap.

I know that 40 times and bench reps and vertical leaps are not good measures of anything football, especially for QBs, but when the argument is that Russell is a better "athlete", and then you have combine numbers that contradict it, I mean, people like that end up losing their credibility.

You may think that who is the better athlete is a completely irrelivant arguement, and I would agree with you wholeheartedly. But some people actually argue that Russell is the better athlete, and aside from being irrelivant, it couldnt be further from the truth.

That is what Dmek is saying, and I agree with him.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Who cares.
Who was the better QB last year in real games?
That is what should matter. Not sit ups/push ups and 40 times.
Vertical leap for a QB? It does not come into play for a Qb on a football field, unless he wants to do the the Lambeau leap.

i think your posts would have more credibility if you didn't have such a hard one for Notre dame. i agree the 40 and the other combine stuff is irrelevant when comes to winning football. i was making a generalized statement that alot of people don't know. but i do think Quinn will be the better quarterback. how many people even knew Russell's name before they beat Notre dame? not many

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i think your posts would have more credibility if you didn't have such a hard one for Notre dame. i agree the 40 and the other combine stuff is irrelevant when comes to winning football. i was making a generalized statement that alot of people don't know. but i do think Quinn will be the better quarterback. how many people even knew Russell's name before they beat Notre dame? not many

I grew up a ND fan and watched a ton of ND football growing up;I do not have a hard one for them.
Is it because I called them "golden ND'? Or is it because I said they did not have a very tough schedule this last year in comparison to teams like OSU, LSU or Texas? Those things are true aren't they?
ND to their credit does get extra TV coverage, bowl consideration and national title attention because of their huge following. BUt that is good for the game. It is like when the Yankees and Red Sox meet in the ALCS. Big money to be made. But I have nothing against them. I do not think what I said to be untrue or slandering ND in any way. It is the truth... right?
My point was Quinn had a lot of hype and was very highly rated before the 2006 season started. They were ready to give him the Heisman before the season even started.
Plus, for some to to blame ND's season on the rest of the team and excuse Quinn is not right. Quinn was the one that had the bad games and multiple interceptions in the Michigan and LSU losses.
Ben Roethlisberger Played on a much weaker team, Miami of Ohio and still led his team to bowl wins and many upsets of higher ranked teams. ND has much more talent that any Miami of Ohio team, yet Roelisberger still QB'ed his team to victory after victory.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by dmek25

ihow many people even knew Russell's name before they beat Notre dame? not many

Are you kidding? Maybe my grandmother didnt know his name, but my grandfather did and he doesn't even like college football particularily. You must not watch a lot of college ball, because this guy has been a stud for two years now. I think it was his comeback against ASU in 06 that really put him on the map, right after Katrina had hit.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Are you kidding? Maybe my grandmother didnt know his name, but my grandfather did and he doesn't even like college football particularily. You must not watch a lot of college ball, because this guy has been a stud for two years now. I think it was his comeback against ASU in 06 that really put him on the map, right after Katrina had hit.

But even in this offseason, no one knew if Russell was even going to be LSU's starter. I mean, talk about someone who wasn't on the NFL 1st round radar, his own team was evaluating other options.

It's hard to argue with the way he responded this year. But he has huge red flags in both decision making and college experience, and yet rather than come back to get these issues ironed out, he left for a big pay day.

Would a lot of guys have done the same thing? Of course. But then again I guess that's why there are so many busts.

What Leinart did by coming back for his Sr. year could have been the difference between an average NFL career and a hall of fame career. That's how important another year of college experience is to a position as mentally reliant as NFL Quarterback is.

I think Leinart will be a better QB prospect than Quinn, for the record, but that Quinn will be a pretty good QB in his own right.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

But even in this offseason, no one knew if Russell was even going to be LSU's starter. I mean, talk about someone who wasn't on the NFL 1st round radar, his own team was evaluating other options.

That wasn't an indictment of Russell, but rather a testament to the amazing depth LSU had at that position, including a guy who won mvp in the Peach Bowl the year before after Russell got hurt, and the number one player coming out of high school. The fact that Russell was still able to easily secure the position is if anything a further credit to his ability.

There's no question that Quinn is the more NFL ready of the two, but by your own argument Gtripp rookies are developmental projects who shouldn't be expected to contribute immediately.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Are you kidding? Maybe my grandmother didnt know his name, but my grandfather did and he doesn't even like college football particularily. You must not watch a lot of college ball, because this guy has been a stud for two years now. I think it was his comeback against ASU in 06 that really put him on the map, right after Katrina had hit.

Great game for LSU < Im a Sun Devils fan > , so the win was bitter sweet . The comeback was more special teams , they ran two blocked punts in for TDs . Maybe they are both all pro one day , one things for sure ,,, they will be very , very wealthy !

[dmek25]

if he was that big a stud, why no heisman invite? he made his name with the win over Notre dame, and his arm strength. to me, he is just another akili smith

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by dmek25

if he was that big a stud, why no heisman invite? he made his name with the win over Notre dame, and his arm strength. to me, he is just another akili smith

I think you are overexaggerating a bit, but ultimately this is the right idea. He put together a dominant 2nd half of the year this year on a great football team, and all of a sudden he is the second coming. Quinn simply has been doing it longer. Quinn has absolutely proven himself a competant NFL prospect. There are just too many unanswered questions surrounding Russell.

All QB prospects can use more seasoning, but in Russell's case, it seems really obvious to me at least. Dude is not NFL ready, and thats not something that can change once you enter the league.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by dmek25

if he was that big a stud, why no heisman invite? he made his name with the win over Notre dame, and his arm strength. to me, he is just another akili smith

I'm not sure that's the best standard for evaluating a quarterback. Only 3 guys got invites this year. Just because a couple media guys with morning shows who know nothing about college ball waited till after that game to start talking about him doesn't mean his name hasn't been out there for over 2 years.

He had 8 fourth quarter comebacks in college playing as an underclassman. He has always showed poise and maturity. I love how people who have barely watched him play make bold proclamations about his future in the NFL.

I think if LSU had a deal with NBC this debate would be a lot more one sided.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

I think if LSU had a deal with NBC this debate would be a lot more one sided.

I do too.

[djnemo65]

Anyway, my final thought is this: I have no idea how Russell will turn out as a pro but I understand the decision calculus and grading criteria that would have him chosen ahead of Quinn. For the record, I'm rooting for both guys.