FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

[Monkeydad]

We are becoming very spoiled.

Previous generations were willing to make sacrifices in wartime to succeed. WWII rations so we could fund the operation, women going to work in factories to supply their husbands at war and to raise the families, they felt some personal ties to the war and cared enough to see it all the way to success. In the Civil War, many more sacrifices were made. During the Revolutionary War, EVERYTHING was put at risk for their nation.

Today, we all want to feel unaffected by the fight against our enemies and defense of our freedom. We oppose anything that reminds us we're at war, we focus on the negative and elect people who will even try to undermine our sons, brothers and fathers in harm's way. Before, a lot of these people would rightfully so be found guilty of treason.

Listening in on terrorists and the people communicating with them has NO EFFECT on you if you are not doing it. You are not losing any rights, but if we turn our backs on this fight, you WILL lose rights and maybe your life. Did you enjoy walking around the morning of 09/11 fearing or wondering if your city was next? Did you enjoy losing loved ones on that day (if any of you did)? That day, your freedom was stolen away. Do not selfishly oppose steps needed to make sure we kill the people who want to steal your freedom and life forever...or you'll really know what living under dear and oppression is like.

[Miller101]

Originally Posted by Buster

We are becoming very spoiled.

Previous generations were willing to make sacrifices in wartime to succeed. WWII rations so we could fund the operation, women going to work in factories to supply their husbands at war and to raise the families, they felt some personal ties to the war and cared enough to see it all the way to success. In the Civil War, many more sacrifices were made. During the Revolutionary War, EVERYTHING was put at risk for their nation.

Today, we all want to feel unaffected by the fight against our enemies and defense of our freedom. We oppose anything that reminds us we're at war, we focus on the negative and elect people who will even try to undermine our sons, brothers and fathers in harm's way. Before, a lot of these people would rightfully so be found guilty of treason.

Listening in on terrorists and the people communicating with them has NO EFFECT on you if you are not doing it. You are not losing any rights, but if we turn our backs on this fight, you WILL lose rights and maybe your life. Did you enjoy walking around the morning of 09/11 fearing or wondering if your city was next? Did you enjoy losing loved ones on that day (if any of you did)? That day, your freedom was stolen away. Do not selfishly oppose steps needed to make sure we kill the people who want to steal your freedom and life forever...or you'll really know what living under dear and oppression is like.

Our freedom wasn't taken away that day! I remember that day pretty well AND the days after! So well that I remember "OUR FLAG WAS STILL THERE". There was one on top of the rubble in New York and another one draped over the side of the pentagon................Our flag was still there. So was our country! And therefore our freedom was too! Saying anything different is being stupid.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Miller101

Our freedom wasn't taken away that day! I remember that day pretty well AND the days after! So well that I remember "OUR FLAG WAS STILL THERE". There was one on top of the rubble in New York and another one draped over the side of the pentagon................Our flag was still there. So was our country! And therefore our freedom was too! Saying anything different is being stupid.

I think he was saying that in terms of freely walking around not having check points and things like that. Just go to a Skins game now days and they are not surching people trying to sneek in a beer or two but looking for bombs. So yes in a way we did loose some of our freedoms.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by Buster

We are becoming very spoiled.

Previous generations were willing to make sacrifices in wartime to succeed. WWII rations so we could fund the operation, women going to work in factories to supply their husbands at war and to raise the families, they felt some personal ties to the war and cared enough to see it all the way to success. In the Civil War, many more sacrifices were made. During the Revolutionary War, EVERYTHING was put at risk for their nation.

Making sacrifices is fine -- as long as it's not freedom that is being sacrificed. Working at factories, and helping the war effort is different from giving up liberties.

You mention the Revolutionary War as an example of sacrifice. Those sacrifices were made to obtain the liberties this country was founded on. Why squander those liberties, simply because of a perceived threat?

Originally Posted by Buster

Today, we all want to feel unaffected by the fight against our enemies and defense of our freedom. We oppose anything that reminds us we're at war, we focus on the negative and elect people who will even try to undermine our sons, brothers and fathers in harm's way. Before, a lot of these people would rightfully so be found guilty of treason.

Questioning the government (and opposing, when appropriate) is not treason -- it's patriotism.

Originally Posted by Buster

Listening in on terrorists and the people communicating with them has NO EFFECT on you if you are not doing it.

Not true. It sets a precedent. To think this law has "no effect" on the average citizen's liberties is naive.

Originally Posted by Buster

You are not losing any rights, but if we turn our backs on this fight, you WILL lose rights and maybe your life. Did you enjoy walking around the morning of 09/11 fearing or wondering if your city was next? Did you enjoy losing loved ones on that day (if any of you did)? That day, your freedom was stolen away. Do not selfishly oppose steps needed to make sure we kill the people who want to steal your freedom and life forever...or you'll really know what living under dear and oppression is like.

Fear mongering at its best. Sigh.

I am not scared of terrorists. And, if I was, I certainly wouldn't let that fear dictate which liberties I am assured.

[steveo395]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I am not scared of terrorists. And, if I was, I certainly wouldn't let that fear dictate which liberties I am assured.

Thats because America is doing a good job of stopping the terrorists

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

Why squander those liberties, simply because of a perceived threat?

Do you believe the threat from fundamental Islamists is perceived and not real? They have openly declared war on the United States and their objective is to have one world under Sharia law. Are they an immediate threat to succeed? No. However the threat they pose is very real.

I do agree with you on protecting our liberties, but allowing the government to actively pursue our enemies through surveillance IMO does not infringe on our liberties, as long as there is ultimate oversight by the legislative and judicial branch, which there is.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Do you believe the threat from fundamental Islamists is perceived and not real? They have openly declared war on the United States and their objective is to have one world under Sharia law. Are they an immediate threat to succeed? No. However the threat they pose is very real.

I do agree with you on protecting our liberties, but allowing the government to actively pursue our enemies through surveillance IMO does not infringe on our liberties, as long as there is ultimate oversight by the legislative and judicial branch, which there is.

and parts of the middle east have hated us intensely since the 50s (formation of isreal, overthrow of iranian democracy for british oil interests). the war on terror is an endless and "fake" war. we have intelligence agencies and special operations groups, and if the "war" ended tomorrow, nothing would change... the security has been improved (though it's still not great).

al qaeda has real computer infrastructure now though, they know what crypto is, this isn't going to catch anyone with half a brain or stop those using VOIP (which is much cheaper and very easy to encrypt).

I'm just saying, you're losing privacy and gaining nothing except the ability to catch really really stupid terrorists that probably aren't going to be all that effective anyways.

this would be much better at busting drug rings than anything else.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by That Guy

and parts of the middle east have hated us intensely since the 50s (formation of isreal, overthrow of iranian democracy for british oil interests). the war on terror is an endless and "fake" war. we have intelligence agencies and special operations groups, and if the "war" ended tomorrow, nothing would change... the security has been improved (though it's still not great).

We definitely agree on this point. While I don't think war on terror itself is fake, we should be fighting it in a much more clandestine way. I don't like the idea of our troops basically being targets to draw out terrorists. Mass deployments are also ridiculously expensive.

When Bush 1 stopped from going all the way into Iraq in Desert Storm he was heavily criticized, it appears he had a lot more wisdom than many gave him credit for.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by That Guy

and parts of the middle east have hated us intensely since the 50s (formation of isreal, overthrow of iranian democracy for british oil interests). the war on terror is an endless and "fake" war. we have intelligence agencies and special operations groups, and if the "war" ended tomorrow, nothing would change... the security has been improved (though it's still not great).

al qaeda has real computer infrastructure now though, they know what crypto is, this isn't going to catch anyone with half a brain or stop those using VOIP (which is much cheaper and very easy to encrypt).

I'm just saying, you're losing privacy and gaining nothing except the ability to catch really really stupid terrorists that probably aren't going to be all that effective anyways.

this would be much better at busting drug rings than anything else.

Those three guys we just rescued last week from that terrorist group was done by using wire taps so it does work and who said terrorist where smart to start with.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Do you believe the threat from fundamental Islamists is perceived and not real? They have openly declared war on the United States and their objective is to have one world under Sharia law. Are they an immediate threat to succeed? No. However the threat they pose is very real.

I do agree with you on protecting our liberties, but allowing the government to actively pursue our enemies through surveillance IMO does not infringe on our liberties, as long as there is ultimate oversight by the legislative and judicial branch, which there is.

I would say that terrorists present many real threats, but none which justify the removal of any liberties in America.

Basically, the real threats that terrorists pose are insignificant. The major threats they "pose", are only perceived (IMO).

As for global Sharia law, that will NEVER happen. That is a perceived threat, and it will never become a real threat (IMO). However, that is the kind of "threat" that is used to justify these kinds of restrictions on liberties.

[saden1]

Justice:

1. The quality of being just; fairness.
2. 1. The principle of moral rightness; equity.
   2. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.
3. 1. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
   2. Law. The administration and procedure of law.
4. Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason

[dmek25]

and buster, i think the biggest difference is that today, people just do not trust their elected officials. back then, it seemed like we as a country knew that congress, and the president, always had our best interests in mind. can we really say that now?

[djnemo65]

I actually don't have a problem with expanding governmental surveillance privileges, so long as it is debated, and disclosed to the public. The problem was always that Bush decided to make up new laws as he went along, relying on a radical interpretation of executive power that basically allowed him to do anything he wanted, under the pretense that we are at war (which we certainly aren't, at least not in the constitutional sense).

It was part and parcel of larger disregard for the rule of law.

As for Obama, he's looking like another prevaricator to me.

[That Guy]

btw, if there is no watchdog group to check for abuses (even after the fact) you're pretty much guaranteed to have abuses.

BernieHund: The Political Watchdog

[70Chip]

The government can listen in on me anytime they want. I hope they like being bored.

The reality is that the NSA can listen to whatever they want anytime they want and there's nothing the courts or activists or even the POTUS can do about it. This train left the station in the 1970s.





Echelon