For those that want Ramsey traded or Hasselbeck to start:

[That Guy]

leftwich also led a whole lot of punting drives... brunell got injured and they decided to go young sooner rather than later, brunell's play until that point was fine...

but you put way too much importance on having a winning team and its correlation with having a good QB...

jamal went 10-6 last year, boller has a better record as a starter than leftwich overall (without having a vet to learn from), so i guess boller is a better QB than brad johnson this year, and obviously better than leftwich overall...

theory doesn't hold up very well...

[SUNRA]

Originally Posted by That Guy

leftwich also led a whole lot of punting drives... brunell got injured and they decided to go young sooner rather than later, brunell's play until that point was fine...

but you put way too much importance on having a winning team and its correlation with having a good QB...

jamal went 10-6 last year, boller has a better record as a starter than leftwich overall (without having a vet to learn from), so i guess boller is a better QB than brad johnson this year, and obviously better than leftwich overall...

theory doesn't hold up very well...

Leftwich in his rookie year had the fourth highest passing yardage (2,819) for a Rookie in NFL history. I think my theory holds up well. Why do you find it difficult to see a correlation between a QB and his team winning? He's more that just another player. You know that. I think Favre, Elway, Montana, Bradshaw would attest to that.

[MTK]

I totally agree dieselhog, we haven't even given Ramsey a fair shake here, yet some people are writing him off and ready to ship him out.

Just doesn't make much sense to me.

[MTK]

Hogskin, a lot of people were ready to ship Brad out after his somewhat disappointing 2000 season. I wouldn't say he was 'ran out of town', but there were definitely people that weren't sad to see him go.

I think the basic point dieselhog is trying to make is how quickly the fans turn on players, especially our QB's it seems. Ramsey was the apple of the fans' eye in his rookie season, especially after his flash of brilliance against the Titans. Now it seems that some people don't even want to give him the chance to develop, they've seen enough after 16 careers starts to conclude that he's not going to become a quality NFL starter.

I think with our ridiculously high turnover at QB over the years, we as fans have become used to a new face in there every year and we're not used to what it's like to commit to one guy through thick and thin to let him develop. Personally I really hope we will have enough patience with Ramsey, both as fans and as an organization.

Not every QB is going to be a Tom Brady, a guy that has instant success. More often than not, a star QB takes 3-4 seasons to start to hit their stride. Guys like Aikman, Elway, Favre, etc., all had rough rides early in their careers, yet the payoff of letting them struggle and develop was huge needless to say.

Right now a lot of people have very unrealistic expectations of him. There's only one way Ramsey is going to improve, and that's to play. He's going to struggle along the way, but hopefully the payoff will be worth it. Let's give the kid a chance, that's all I'm saying.

[MTK]

The only thing we owe Ramsey is a chance to show he can succeed. If 16 starts over his first two seasons is a real shot in somebody's book then fine, but it's not in mine.

Rod Gardner has had the chance to prove himself. He's started 3 full seasons, so no I won't feel bad if he's shipped out. He's had his chance, Ramsey hasn't, big difference.

[Hogskin]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

The only thing we owe Ramsey is a chance to show he can succeed. If 16 starts over his first two seasons is a real shot in somebody's book then fine, but it's not in mine.

Rod Gardner has had the chance to prove himself. He's started 3 full seasons, so no I won't feel bad if he's shipped out. He's had his chance, Ramsey hasn't, big difference.

As usual, Matty, you make a reasonable point in an intelligent way. I have been referred to as a hypocrite, an idiot, a non-fan, a baby, and several other uncomplinentary symbols, simply because I presented a point of view that others disagree with. All that does is tend to polarize a person in their views. You have disagreed, but have not stooped to that. And your rationales are having at least some effect. I am now hoping Patrick will at least get another shot this season to see if he can shake his bad habits. Even though I don't think it will happen, I am not against him getting a real opportunity, and, of course, I will pull for him to succeed. But if he gets 3-4 more games and still has the same basic flaws, I hope no one will feel we have to put the season in the toilet for more experimentation with him. Even if we LOSE 4 games with him at QB, if he STARTS TO CORRECT his obvious fundamental errors, I would be all for keeping him in there. But we NEED to see some sign that he is able to learn and able to correct his ongoing problems. He has had more opportunities than most guys get that have flaws as serious as his, and make no progress with them.

[MTK]

Hogskin I'm glad you have a thick skin, we've lost some good people on this board because they get chased away by people resorting to name calling when someone has a disagreement in opinion. To me that's very frustrating and disappointing.

The key is 'opinion'. Mine is no more correct than anyone else's. For all I know I could be dead wrong with Ramsey, of course I hope I'm not

I know we can all get a little fired up at times, especially after a frustrating loss like last week. We just need to remember that we're here because we all have something in common, we're fans of the Washington Redskins.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Hogskin I'm glad you have a thick skin, we've lost some good people on this board because they get chased away by people resorting to name calling when someone has a disagreement in opinion. To me that's very frustrating and disappointing.

The key is 'opinion'. Mine is no more correct than anyone else's. For all I know I could be dead wrong with Ramsey, of course I hope I'm not

I know we can all get a little fired up at times, especially after a frustrating loss like last week. We just need to remember that we're here because we all have something in common, we're fans of the Washington Redskins.

Amen brother! - H.H.
I fully agree.
I enjoy reading the posts I disagree with as much or more than the one's I agree with.
The disagreements in opinions makes it entertaining. But the anger, belittling and name calling is not necessary to get your point across.

[Hogskin]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Hogskin I'm glad you have a thick skin, we've lost some good people on this board because they get chased away by people resorting to name calling when someone has a disagreement in opinion. To me that's very frustrating and disappointing.

The key is 'opinion'. Mine is no more correct than anyone else's. For all I know I could be dead wrong with Ramsey, of course I hope I'm not

I know we can all get a little fired up at times, especially after a frustrating loss like last week. We just need to remember that we're here because we all have something in common, we're fans of the Washington Redskins.

Thanks for this post, Matty. And with our current state at the QB position, in spite of my strong opinions to the contrary, I hope you are right, also.

As far as running away from the board, as you know, I started to do that a while back for the same reason. But since I have been back, I have found that it is much easier to deal with that stuff if I don't follow them into the pits like I was doing before.

[SmootSmack]

Could you imagine how boring this site would be if we all agree on everything all the time? We all agree on the ends-Redskins Super Bowl!!- but we differ on the means, which is fun.

Defensewins, you're absolutely right-the anger, belittling, and name calling isn't necessary and in fact, when people resort to that you can pretty much tell that they have nothing substantial to really base their opinion on.

Anyway, speaking of Hasselbeck, I guess the pine's not the only thing he's been riding. bada-boom!!

Thank you! Thank you! I'll be opening all week for RedskinRat

[sportscurmudgeon]

Folks:

I really like Patrick Ramsey. I think he can become a very good QB sometime down the road. NOtice I did not say "great" because I don't know if he can be that good, but he can be a long time QB who does very well in the NFL

Having said that, I think it is fair to say that he isn't quite there yet. At the moment, I don't know that he will be the 25th best QB starting THIS WEEKEND. That says nothing about how good he might be or how short the careers of others who are better than him NOW might be. He has a long way to go to reach his potential.

As for the impassioned rhetoric about how this poor but noble soul came here and got dissed by everyone, let me try to give you a parallel example:

You draft a QB in the first round - but fans travel all the way to NY to boo the hell out of him as the choice is announced.

He plays for the team that had the WORST record in the NFL the year before he got there (Cleveland had first pick because they were the newbies of the league) and gets 5 wins in that year.

He has been selected for the Pro Bowl three times and has played in the NFC Championship game 3 times.

He's pretty tough too because he broke his leg in the first quarter of a game and played the rest of the game on a broken leg and won that game.

He's had some "tough times" with the fans and with a really sorry assed team to start withm but he saeems to have developed pretty well. Compare Donovan McNabb to Patrick Ramsey at comparable stages of their careers.

Nice rhetorical device dieselhog. Sorry to point out a counter-example! :FIREdevil

[Gmanc711]

Originally Posted by smootsmack

Anyway, speaking of Hasselbeck, I guess the pine's not the only thing he's been riding. bada-boom!!

Thank you! Thank you! I'll be opening all week for RedskinRat

Tim Hasslebeck has the freakin life. He has that, and gets to be around the Redskins all the time. Does it get any better?

[That Guy]

yeah, i wasn't really so hot on mcnabb until last year... he's gotten a lot of crap, but he seems to be doing alright now ... i'd hate to think we're anything like the iggles fans though, please don't boo...

[BIGREDSKINFAN63]

folks,i'm hoping for a miracle cure for brunnell cause ramsey can't beat dallas or anybody else.he is not ready to play.i would rather see hasselback out there playing than PR because the guy is two steps under heath shuler.he is tough,and he took one hell of a beating the last two years,but the skins will lose if he starts monday night.

[Gmanc711]

I understand all the arguments against Ramsey. I just dont understand how sending Hasslebeck out there is somehow a better option.