US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

So the S&P might be called to testify before Congress. The gloves are about to come off. This is getting ugly.

S&P investigated by Senate Banking Committee - Josh Boak - POLITICO.com

HAHAHA! So they S&P runs our political environment through the ringer and the those responsible for it are now gonna haul them in to answer for their crimes. That's rich! A bunch of thin-skinned thugs.

[mlmpetert]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

HAHAHA! So they S&P runs our political environment through the ringer and the those responsible for it are now gonna haul them in to answer for their crimes. That's rich! A bunch of thin-skinned thugs.

Well its a little more rich then busting down their doors and raiding them....

Police raid Milan offices of Moody's and Standard & Poor's | World news | The Guardian

[JoeRedskin]

If they do try and haul these guys before a Senate committee, it will be an unmitigated disaster. Our debt is so out of hand that, as others have said, this downgrade should have happened years ago. There will be ample evidence in support of it - just based on numbers alone. All it these idiots will do is give S&P a chance to highlight just how idiotic the govt. is and make it seem like S&P was giving the U.S. a break.

[12thMan]

FRPLG, I'm not dismissive of the events or the downgrade for that matter. It's a huge deal. We've lost billions in market cap in less than two weeks. But I wholeheartedly stand by my criticism, rating agencies have no business dictating policy. Especially S&P. They are three years too late and a dollar short downgrading anything. Had they downgraded the failed banks and unscrupulous mortgage lenders that led to the financial meltdown, had they issued the proper warnings when conditions were right, the politics of this current debate would have been far less difficult and much more achievable, in my opinion. We'd probably be looking at a completely different chain of events with a different menu of options to address them. But that's all water under the bridge now.

If lawmakers want to take their cue from economic forecasts to shape policy, fine. It shouldn't be the other away around. In some twisted way, I feel like our democracy has been undermined.

Let's not confuse raising the debt ceiling and deficit reduction. Raising the debt ceiling isn't about dispensing a blank check to the president and giving him more spending authority. The federal debt limit is about how much revenue we can raise, not about how well we budget. We raise the debt to cover pass expenditures that have already passed through Congress like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that we're still paying for, TARP, Medicare Part D, and the Bush tax cuts. So the notion that the Tea Party was sent to Washington to gum up Congress in order to not pay our bills? I'm not buying it. Yes, they were sent to Washington with a stern message about future spending, but they were also sent to Washington to govern and keep the country functioning. I will give them credit, they've been extremely successful and effective in changing the terms of the debate and getting Washington to focus on deficit reduction and getting our house in order. Bravo to them in that regard.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

FRPLG, I'm not dismissive of the events or the downgrade for that matter. It's a huge deal. We've lost billions in market cap in less than two weeks. But I wholeheartedly stand by my criticism, rating agencies have no business dictating policy. Especially S&P. They are three years too late and a dollar short downgrading anything. Had they downgraded the failed banks and unscrupulous mortgage lenders that led to the financial meltdown, had they issued the proper warnings when conditions were right, the politics of this current debate would have been far less difficult and much more achievable, in my opinion. We'd probably be looking at a completely different chain of events with a different menu of options to address them. But that's all water under the bridge now.

If lawmakers want to take their cue from economic forecasts to shape policy, fine. It shouldn't be the other away around. In some twisted way, I feel like our democracy has been undermined.

Let's not confuse raising the debt ceiling and deficit reduction. Raising the debt ceiling isn't about dispensing a blank check to the president and giving him more spending authority. The federal debt limit is about how much revenue we can raise, not about how well we budget. We raise the debt to cover pass expenditures that have already passed through Congress like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that we're still paying for, TARP, Medicare Part D, and the Bush tax cuts. So the notion that the Tea Party was sent to Washington to gum up Congress in order to not pay our bills? I'm not buying it. Yes, they were sent to Washington with a stern message about future spending, but they were also sent to Washington to govern and keep the country functioning. I will give them credit, they've been extremely successful and effective in changing the terms of the debate and getting Washington to focus on deficit reduction and getting our house in order. Bravo to them in that regard.

I guess to them, I am not a tea partier by any stretch but I do agree with some fundamental philosophy, the debt ceiling was representative of what they feel the issue has been--the willingness to continue spending money into the future that we don't have now and likely won't have then. Ultimately it was a tool for them to start twisting the Washington establishment away from the destructive policies of the past and present. The culture of our governing few is busted and it is going to take cracking that culture in half to start making the right decisions for this country. It isn't something that can be effectively changed over a long and slow process. It is going to need a shock to make it happen most likely. Until the system is changed so that the hard decisions are actually made instead of them PRETENDING to make hard decisions (but really just masking the same old same old) I applaud anyone who goes to Washington and holds it hostage.

Example number 1. Social Security. We can't afford it. We can't afford it now and we can't afford in the future. At least not without it changing so much that it isn't even the same thing any more. Yet no one in Washington does a damn thing about really CHANGING it or simply getting rid of it. Why? Because instead of making a hard but correct decision they all engage in group think to stay elected. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes down to it I pay for food, water, electricity and a host of other necessities before I start dropping a bunch of money into my retirement. But our gov't has been saying for decades "Screw that! We can pay for everything all at once even without the cash to do it! Future generations be damned!". Well guess what, the "future generation" is here and a lot of us are f*cking pissed about it.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I guess to them, I am not a tea partier by any stretch but I do agree with some fundamental philosophy, the debt ceiling was representative of what they feel the issue has been--the willingness to continue spending money into the future that we don't have now and likely won't have then. Ultimately it was a tool for them to start twisting the Washington establishment away from the destructive policies of the past and present. The culture of our governing few is busted and it is going to take cracking that culture in half to start making the right decisions for this country. It isn't something that can be effectively changed over a long and slow process. It is going to need a shock to make it happen most likely. Until the system is changed so that the hard decisions are actually made instead of them PRETENDING to make hard decisions (but really just masking the same old same old) I applaud anyone who goes to Washington and holds it hostage.

Example number 1. Social Security. We can't afford it. We can't afford it now and we can't afford in the future. At least not without it changing so much that it isn't even the same thing any more. Yet no one in Washington does a damn thing about really CHANGING it or simply getting rid of it. Why? Because instead of making a hard but correct decision they all engage in group think to stay elected. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes down to it I pay for food, water, electricity and a host of other necessities before I start dropping a bunch of money into my retirement. But our gov't has been saying for decades "Screw that! We can pay for everything all at once even without the cash to do it! Future generations be damned!". Well guess what, the "future generation" is here and a lot of us are f*cking pissed about it.

Best post in the thread.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I guess to them, I am not a tea partier by any stretch but I do agree with some fundamental philosophy, the debt ceiling was representative of what they feel the issue has been--the willingness to continue spending money into the future that we don't have now and likely won't have then. Ultimately it was a tool for them to start twisting the Washington establishment away from the destructive policies of the past and present. The culture of our governing few is busted and it is going to take cracking that culture in half to start making the right decisions for this country. It isn't something that can be effectively changed over a long and slow process. It is going to need a shock to make it happen most likely. Until the system is changed so that the hard decisions are actually made instead of them PRETENDING to make hard decisions (but really just masking the same old same old) I applaud anyone who goes to Washington and holds it hostage.

Example number 1. Social Security. We can't afford it. We can't afford it now and we can't afford in the future. At least not without it changing so much that it isn't even the same thing any more. Yet no one in Washington does a damn thing about really CHANGING it or simply getting rid of it. Why? Because instead of making a hard but correct decision they all engage in group think to stay elected. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes down to it I pay for food, water, electricity and a host of other necessities before I start dropping a bunch of money into my retirement. But our gov't has been saying for decades "Screw that! We can pay for everything all at once even without the cash to do it! Future generations be damned!". Well guess what, the "future generation" is here and a lot of us are f*cking pissed about it.

Same page. Totally agree.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I guess to them, I am not a tea partier by any stretch but I do agree with some fundamental philosophy, the debt ceiling was representative of what they feel the issue has been--the willingness to continue spending money into the future that we don't have now and likely won't have then. Ultimately it was a tool for them to start twisting the Washington establishment away from the destructive policies of the past and present. The culture of our governing few is busted and it is going to take cracking that culture in half to start making the right decisions for this country. It isn't something that can be effectively changed over a long and slow process. It is going to need a shock to make it happen most likely. Until the system is changed so that the hard decisions are actually made instead of them PRETENDING to make hard decisions (but really just masking the same old same old) I applaud anyone who goes to Washington and holds it hostage.

Example number 1. Social Security. We can't afford it. We can't afford it now and we can't afford in the future. At least not without it changing so much that it isn't even the same thing any more. Yet no one in Washington does a damn thing about really CHANGING it or simply getting rid of it. Why? Because instead of making a hard but correct decision they all engage in group think to stay elected. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes down to it I pay for food, water, electricity and a host of other necessities before I start dropping a bunch of money into my retirement. But our gov't has been saying for decades "Screw that! We can pay for everything all at once even without the cash to do it! Future generations be damned!". Well guess what, the "future generation" is here and a lot of us are f*cking pissed about it.

The only problem with SS is that they expanded it for more then retirements and then they stole the money from SS to buy more votes. If the money intended for SS was left in its account we would have more then enough to cover its cost.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by firstdown

The only problem with SS is that they expanded it for more then retirements and then they stole the money from SS to buy more votes. If the money intended for SS was left in its account we would have more then enough to cover its cost.

I think there are way more problems than that. That's just the easy to debate issue.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I guess to them, I am not a tea partier by any stretch but I do agree with some fundamental philosophy, the debt ceiling was representative of what they feel the issue has been--the willingness to continue spending money into the future that we don't have now and likely won't have then. Ultimately it was a tool for them to start twisting the Washington establishment away from the destructive policies of the past and present. The culture of our governing few is busted and it is going to take cracking that culture in half to start making the right decisions for this country. It isn't something that can be effectively changed over a long and slow process. It is going to need a shock to make it happen most likely. Until the system is changed so that the hard decisions are actually made instead of them PRETENDING to make hard decisions (but really just masking the same old same old) I applaud anyone who goes to Washington and holds it hostage.

Example number 1. Social Security. We can't afford it. We can't afford it now and we can't afford in the future. At least not without it changing so much that it isn't even the same thing any more. Yet no one in Washington does a damn thing about really CHANGING it or simply getting rid of it. Why? Because instead of making a hard but correct decision they all engage in group think to stay elected. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes down to it I pay for food, water, electricity and a host of other necessities before I start dropping a bunch of money into my retirement. But our gov't has been saying for decades "Screw that! We can pay for everything all at once even without the cash to do it! Future generations be damned!". Well guess what, the "future generation" is here and a lot of us are f*cking pissed about it.

Let's not pretend the tea party is a voice reason. Their solution consists of cut spending and cut taxes after all. These numbnuts have no problem brining the bacon back home either.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by saden1

Let's not pretend the tea party is a voice reason. Their solution consists of cut spending and cut taxes after all. These numbnuts have no problem brining the bacon back home either.

Their solution is far and away better than anyone elses in my opinion. Anything that doesn't involve actually stopping spending that we can't afford is useless. Third-rail spending or not.

The question of taxes is such a sh*t issue. I'm pretty tired of people wanting the gov't do do everything but not have taxes.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Their solution is far and away better than anyone elses in my opinion. Anything that doesn't involve actually stopping spending that we can't afford is useless. Third-rail spending or not.

The question of taxes is such a sh*t issue. I'm pretty tired of people wanting the gov't do do everything but not have taxes.

How did the vote on the Republican Study Committee budget turnout?

They're peacocking is all. As we have seen from the last decade Tax Cuts can be quite costly especially since they are currently the lowest they have ever been.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I guess to them, I am not a tea partier by any stretch but I do agree with some fundamental philosophy, the debt ceiling was representative of what they feel the issue has been--the willingness to continue spending money into the future that we don't have now and likely won't have then. Ultimately it was a tool for them to start twisting the Washington establishment away from the destructive policies of the past and present. The culture of our governing few is busted and it is going to take cracking that culture in half to start making the right decisions for this country. It isn't something that can be effectively changed over a long and slow process. It is going to need a shock to make it happen most likely. Until the system is changed so that the hard decisions are actually made instead of them PRETENDING to make hard decisions (but really just masking the same old same old) I applaud anyone who goes to Washington and holds it hostage.

Example number 1. Social Security. We can't afford it. We can't afford it now and we can't afford in the future. At least not without it changing so much that it isn't even the same thing any more. Yet no one in Washington does a damn thing about really CHANGING it or simply getting rid of it. Why? Because instead of making a hard but correct decision they all engage in group think to stay elected. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes down to it I pay for food, water, electricity and a host of other necessities before I start dropping a bunch of money into my retirement. But our gov't has been saying for decades "Screw that! We can pay for everything all at once even without the cash to do it! Future generations be damned!". Well guess what, the "future generation" is here and a lot of us are f*cking pissed about it.

Bush tried, got trashed by people in his own party and most of the old farts he couldn't sell his idea to are now part of the tea party talking about "I paid into it." And these same Tea Party Republicans got into office by telling their constituents Obama is going to cut your social security, Obama is going to gut Medicare, Obama is going to kill you.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

Bush tried, got trashed by people in his own party and most of the old farts he couldn't sell his idea to are now part of the tea party talking about "I paid into it." And these same Tea Party Republicans got into office by telling their constituents Obama is going to cut your social security, Obama is going to gut Medicare, Obama is going to kill you.

How come the left did not rais hell like this when Clinton cut SS?

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by saden1

Bush tried, got trashed by people in his own party and most of the old farts he couldn't sell his idea to are now part of the tea party talking about "I paid into it." And these same Tea Party Republicans got into office by telling their constituents Obama is going to cut your social security, Obama is going to gut Medicare, Obama is going to kill you.

Oh I agree. Politics as usual.