Vince Young overrated?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GMScud

I agree completely. Notice my disclaimer about only playing 5 games. Also, in a post I just made in the Jason "Red Zone" Cambpell thread, I also pointed out how he's gaining confidence in the eyes of the coaches. I was just saying that as of now, those #'s don't look too great.

Sometimes statistics are overrated, sometimes they aren't.

Very true. We agree.

Like Rob said, The shorter the data, the more inconsistant the stats.

Look at Young. It was thought that he had a high 4th quarter rating, but in fact, it's very low. Sure it's 90.9 during the last 5 games, but the previous 15 it's 70.5. That would average out to be somewhere around 75.6 over his career. Not impressive at all.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

By the way I should cite where I'm getting these numbers from

Vince Young: Situational Stats

Jason Campbell: Situational Stats

Thanks for the links.
Did you check out his 2006 numbers? Vince Young: Situational Stats
He had only a 70.5 rating in the 4th last year.

[BrunellMVP?]

QBs are always the quickest to get over or under rated...they simply need more time..

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by BrunellMVP?

QBs are always the quickest to get over or under rated...they simply need more time..

I do agree with that.

To be honest, I hope VY proves me wrong. He's a good guy, and he deserves success.

[GTripp0012]

One such pro Young argument could be: "He's the most dynamic runner since Vick, and so far the objective evidence shows that he is bound to be a much better passer than Vick ever was."

Of course, I have a bunch of reasons why I personally don't think this makes Young a better quarterback, but this is a much better argument than "he just wins" when trying to decide if a guy is overrated or not.

[jsarno]

I looked a little deeper on Grossman (since Big D thinks the best stat is wins).
In 03, he played in 2 games, 2-0.
In 04, he played in 3 games, 1-2.
In 05, he played in 2 games, 2-0.
In 06, he played in 16 games, 13-3.
In 07, he played in 3 games, 1-2.

That's a total of 19-7 AND a Super Bowl appearance.

You said: most important stas of all, in my opinion at leas, which is WINS?
Hmmm, Grossman, 19-7, VY 11-9.

Still think we should ignore all the other stats?

[RobH4413]

I pointed this out earlier. One QB will put the "wins are most important" to rest. Trent Dilfer.

The year he won the Super bowl, the biggest trophy for any QB to get, he was mediocre at best. He won the big game, and yet... here are his stats...


134 for 226 which is a 59.3% completion percentage.
12TD and 11 INT. Not spectacular. To top it off, his super bowl season he managed to compile an unimpressive 76.6 QB rating. Seriously. Let's be rational here.

For a QB. It's not about wins. It's honestly about how you win. VY has shown promise, and has succeeded in clutch situations. I think he'll develop into a very good QB, but statistically so far, he's much less than average. I love the debate, but let's not lose our heads here.

For the record. Mr. Dilfer's QB rating over his career is 70.8

[TheBigD]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I looked a little deeper on Grossman (since Big D thinks the best stat is wins).
In 03, he played in 2 games, 2-0.
In 04, he played in 3 games, 1-2.
In 05, he played in 2 games, 2-0.
In 06, he played in 16 games, 13-3.
In 07, he played in 3 games, 1-2.

That's a total of 19-7 AND a Super Bowl appearance.

You said: most important stas of all, in my opinion at leas, which is WINS?
Hmmm, Grossman, 19-7, VY 11-9.

Still think we should ignore all the other stats?

Oh come on, we all know that the Bears D and Hester were the reson. Be honest here, do you think Young is as bad as Grossman?

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by TheBigD

Oh come on, we all know that the Bears D and Hester were the reson. Be honest here, do you think Young is as bad as Grossman?

Hester didnt get there until 2006. But the Defense was alot of it.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by TheBigD

Oh come on, we all know that the Bears D and Hester were the reson. Be honest here, do you think Young is as bad as Grossman?

I think that's the point he was trying to get across to you.

It's the same deal in Tennessee, except the defense and special teams weren't nearly as dominant as the Bears last year, so they won 8 games instead of 13.

Tennessee has an outstanding defensive unit this year. Vince is playing better, but still not good. They are a top 12 NFL team right now and that's a good place to be.

[TheBigD]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think that's the point he was trying to get across to you.

It's the same deal in Tennessee, except the defense and special teams weren't nearly as dominant as the Bears last year, so they won 8 games instead of 13.

Tennessee has an outstanding defensive unit this year. Vince is playing better, but still not good. They are a top 12 NFL team right now and that's a good place to be.

OK, tell me this, why wasn't Grossman benched last year? His stats were horrendous last year (one game he had a QB rating of less than 1) and still played in the SB. If the team wins, the QB the coach, the whole organization looks good, and not many care about stats. Stats matter a lot more when the team is losing.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by TheBigD

OK, tell me this, why wasn't Grossman benched last year? His stats were horrendous last year (one game he had a QB rating of less than 1) and still played in the SB. If the team wins, the QB the coach, the whole organization looks good, and not many care about stats. Stats matter a lot more when the team is losing.

You're seeing the reason Grossman wasn't benched last year. Their names are "Griese" and "Orton" respectively.

If a team needs to win with a weak QB, you might as well do it with the one who has the future ahead of him, not the veteran who has sucked up the joint since his career began.

Grossman was the best option for the time, and probably still is all things considered. Now that the Bears don't have a top defense anymore, they aren't winning anymore.

I'm not even sure what you are saying anymore. Are you saying Grossman shouldn't have been benched simply because he was winning? Are you saying that he should of because he was sucking, but not because of his stats...somehow? Or is this about how everything is subjective and we don't know anymore about Grossman now than we ever did, and he only got benched because he wasn't winning?

Your argument is very confusing.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by TheBigD

Oh come on, we all know that the Bears D and Hester were the reson. Be honest here, do you think Young is as bad as Grossman?

Just wanted to point out GTripp did a pretty good job of mirroring my sentiments, so to not duplicate ideas or opinions, I will go down a different road here.

This is the EXACT reason VY is overrated. Grossman put up better numbers accross the board for his career, yet he never got any respect even when he took his team to the super bowl. Vince Young on the other hand is considered to be the future and has been exhaulted by the media. So you need to ask yourself...why? Why is Grossman hated while Young is exhaulted? What is the differences in their games? There is only one glaring reason, and that's one QB can run and the other can't. If Young couldn't run, where do you think he'd be right now? The fact that Young can run (and run well) is the reason why people are blinded into thinking he's a good QB.
There have been many "scrambling" QB's that have come into this league, not a single one was successful until they learned that pocket passing was a priority. McNabb, Culpepper, Steve Young and even Campbell to name a few are those that figured it out. Kordell Stewart, Mike Vick, and right now Vince Young, haven't. You don't need an all around athlete to succeed at QB (see Manning, Brady, Montana, Marino etc) you need someone that trusts his pocket and works on his throwing ability.
I said it before, and I'll say it again, VY will never win anything significant until he learns to run as a LAST RESORT, not option 1, 2, 3, or 4.
AGain, I think he's a good kid, I wish him success, and I hope he developes into a good overall QB, but right now, he's not going down the right road.

[The Zimmermans]

JOHN ELWAY has a career passer rating of 79. And 47 of his 148 wins were 4th quarter comeback drives.

[jsarno]

For the record, Griese is better than Grossman.