Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

[BrunellMVP?]

Take a look at my name...does anyone here think I've not been bashing players, who in my eyes, are grossly underperforming? If I knew how to change it, I'd have something on hear about B. Lloyd. Trust me, I'm certainly not one to give players the free pass...


Presently, I'm of the opinion that Moss is no longer a premier WR...as far as i'm concerned he's had one good year (2005) and done little thereafter. He's injury prone and no longer explosive for the 80 yard trots down the sideline.

I also believe that Portis is no longer a premier back (bordering on average)- but when I make this comment, people jump down my throat about the line issues (and they are right), except, I believe that Great backs (which is what I'm told Clinton is) should do more than 3.9 yards per carry even with an injured line. Where's his explosiveness? why can't he break a long gain? he's got to lead the NFL in most carries without a TD of 25 yards or more.

I'm frustrated with Jason C. but I think he'll be VERY GOOD soon, so I look the other way.
plus other people are mentioning it.

As far as the D is concerned, I'm EXTREMELY frustrated with the lack of pressure from the D-line. we aren't stepping up and making plays...way too much time...but that is enough venting.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by BrunellMVP?

I also believe that Portis is no longer a premier back (bordering on average)- but when I make this comment, people jump down my throat about the line issues (and they are right), except, I believe that Great backs (which is what I'm told Clinton is) should do more than 3.9 yards per carry even with an injured line. Where's his explosiveness? why can't he break a long gain? he's got to lead the NFL in most carries without a TD of 25 yards or more.
.

What's with CP running so soft this year? It seems like he's caught Jamal Lewis syndrome where he takes a lot of quick little steps at the line and can't get it going. I'd like to see him get back to being the one cut and take off runner that he used to be... (I guess this could all be caused by the line.)

[BrunellMVP?]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well see, you illustrate my point right there. Does Saunders calls the plays or does he not? As soon as we see a running play, everyone instinctively says "Oh well that's Gibbs handcuffing the team again." But is he even calling the plays there?

I think only person here has even made any mention of the fact that the defense gave up a 30 yard pass right down the middle to set up the game-winning field goal by the Bills. Where's the outcry over that? Where's the outcry over half the offensive line false starting at a critical 4th and 1 (I think that's what it was) in the red zone on the first drive? Things like that, when they are on this site, are usually buried in threads.

Look I'm not saying absolve Gibbs of any blame. I'm just echoing 70Chip's well-founded sentiments that more needs to go the players way. You win as a team, you lose as a team.

That is part of the problem..who is calling the plays in crunch situations? red zone, forth down, 4th quarter, 2 min drill? the shroud of confusion from the fan perspective is problematic. I personally believe gibbs takes over in the critical situations...otherwise, what does he actually do? he'd be like a bowden at FSU- a figurehead, in which case, why do we care if he's there or not.

That is an excellent point SS, there is def. no excusing the Defense's play...they constantly give up long drives in crunch time too...very frustrating and unacceptable...i think people are more likely to give them a break there bc ST wasn't there...
in my opinion, the Defense is not NEARLY as good as we think...or would like to believe...

[BrunellMVP?]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

What's with CP running so soft this year? It seems like he's caught Jamal Lewis syndrome where he takes a lot of quick little steps at the line and can't get it going. I'd like to see him get back to being the one cut and take off runner that he used to be... (I guess this could all be caused by the line.)

agreed. The line is def. responsible for CP's lack of a 130 yards per game average- but, like i said, in my mind, he should be a lot better than than he is, which is just below or at average. he got 2 yards a carry last week against a weak run defense. If he's like Jamal, i hope next year CP has the same type of rebirth, because nobody is going to take his contract.

Betts must be fuming...no way he knew he was signing on to be a full time backup.

[redsk1]

Originally Posted by BrunellMVP?

That is part of the problem..who is calling the plays in crunch situations? red zone, forth down, 4th quarter, 2 min drill? the shroud of confusion from the fan perspective is problematic. I personally believe gibbs takes over in the critical situations...otherwise, what does he actually do? he'd be like a bowden at FSU- a figurehead, in which case, why do we care if he's there or not.

That is an excellent point SS, there is def. no excusing the Defense's play...they constantly give up long drives in crunch time too...very frustrating and unacceptable...i think people are more likely to give them a break there bc ST wasn't there...
in my opinion, the Defense is not NEARLY as good as we think...or would like to believe...

There is no doubt in my mind that Gibbs has major influence once we get to crunch time and end of the game situations. No doubt.

[BDBohnzie]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I think only person here has even made any mention of the fact that the defense gave up a 30 yard pass right down the middle to set up the game-winning field goal by the Bills. Where's the outcry over that? Where's the outcry over half the offensive line false starting at a critical 4th and 1 (I think that's what it was) in the red zone on the first drive? Things like that, when they are on this site, are usually buried in threads.

Between the injury to Springs and the defensive line not getting any kind of pressure, Edwards had all day to throw last Sunday...the secondary gave up more than one big pass play.

The Bills were 5-13 on 3rd downs. Looking at the drive log, the Skins gave up 9 on 3rd and 4, 16 on 3rd and 6 (same drive, ended in a punt), 29 on a 3rd and 7, 9 on 3rd and 5, and 54 on a 3rd and 6. Last 3 were all in the 2nd half, and all set up FGs by Buffalo.

However, at the time, there was only one starter out on the field (Landry) and the rest were 2nd and even 3rd string backups. Any QB worth their weight in Fruit Roll-ups are going to find open receivers in a patch-work secondary. Edwards did just that as the momentum swung in the Bills' favor during the 2nd half.

[redsk1]

I'm tending to agree about Moss. A fine #2 reciever, but not sure he's a #1.

I keep also hearing that the players should take some of the heat too. They should. However, Gibbs brings the players in. Example #1. Yes, we blamed Brunell for about everything, as well deserved. However, I place major blame on Gibbs for bringing him in. He had about 0 in the tank at that point. I can't remember any nfl guru's thinking that was a good move. Point being, if you are going to blame the players part of that lies on JG's too.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

And what did we do the year before 05? Was he not our HC? He runs the whole team, doesn't he? Joe gets bashed when the offense falters but doesn't get credit when his defense wins. Credit goes to the HC as much as the DC and OC.

Well he has nothing to do with the defense. He is not involved and he has said so himself. Even in his 1st go around he left it to Ritchie.

Here is something else I noticed. I could be nitpicking but oh well. The other night I saw Bill B. on the sidelines talking to the offensive and defensive players. I saw a piece on NFL Network and they had a mic on the NE sidelines. Bill B. is talking strategy with the players, telling them instructions, in other words he is very involved even though he is not the defensive or offensive play caller. When Brady comes to the sidelines during a TO he is communicating with Josh McDaniels but Bill B. is right there in the huddle talking with his QB and OC. He is involved even though he does not call the plays.

Does Gibbs EVER do any of this? No. He is not involved at all when it comes to in game stategy. Sorry but if my offense was having all these problems in the red zone, and I was constantly blowing 2nd half leads, and I was an expert in the area of NFL offense, and my season was on the line, you could bet your ass I would be involved. I would be talking with all of my players getting feed back. But I only see JC talking with Bill Lazor. Gibbs is never talking with any of the players. He's just on the head phones with Saunders. Since when does Bill Lazor know more than Gibbs? Why isn't Saunders on the sidelines?

This is the stuff I'm talking about. I would send Lazor upstairs and have Al on the sidelines. Tough shit if he doesn't like it. Make some damn adjustments to try and score more points instead of staying put. Get your ass involved in the game instead of sitting there with your arms folded and trusting the assistants to do everything.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by redsk1

I'm tending to agree about Moss. A fine #2 reciever, but not sure he's a #1.

I keep also hearing that the players should take some of the heat too. They should. However, Gibbs brings the players in. Example #1. Yes, we blamed Brunell for about everything, as well deserved. However, I place major blame on Gibbs for bringing him in. He had about 0 in the tank at that point. I can't remember any nfl guru's thinking that was a good move. Point being, if you are going to blame the players part of that lies on JG's too.

On top of that he gave up a draft pick for the guy when he didn't have to. That alone is a move that gets people fired.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by BDBohnzie

Between the injury to Springs and the defensive line not getting any kind of pressure, Edwards had all day to throw last Sunday...the secondary gave up more than one big pass play.

The Bills were 5-13 on 3rd downs. Looking at the drive log, the Skins gave up 9 on 3rd and 4, 16 on 3rd and 6 (same drive, ended in a punt), 29 on a 3rd and 7, 9 on 3rd and 5, and 54 on a 3rd and 6. Last 3 were all in the 2nd half, and all set up FGs by Buffalo.

However, at the time, there was only one starter out on the field (Landry) and the rest were 2nd and even 3rd string backups. Any QB worth their weight in Fruit Roll-ups are going to find open receivers in a patch-work secondary. Edwards did just that as the momentum swung in the Bills' favor during the 2nd half.

That 30 yard pass play was pathetic. But you know what? The defense gave up 15 points. That should be good enough to win a home game against Buffalo.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Well he has nothing to do with the defense. He is not involved and he has said so himself. Even in his 1st go around he left it to Ritchie.

Here is something else I noticed. I could be nitpicking but oh well. The other night I saw Bill B. on the sidelines talking to the offensive and defensive players. I saw a piece on NFL Network and they had a mic on the NE sidelines. Bill B. is talking strategy with the players, telling them instructions, in other words he is very involved even though he is not the defensive or offensive play caller. When Brady comes to the sidelines during a TO he is communicating with Josh McDaniels but Bill B. is right there in the huddle talking with his QB and OC. He is involved even though he does not call the plays.

Does Gibbs EVER do any of this? No. He is not involved at all when it comes to in game stategy. Sorry but if my offense was having all these problems in the red zone, and I was constantly blowing 2nd half leads, and I was an expert in the area of NFL offense, and my season was on the line, you could bet your ass I would be involved. I would be talking with all of my players getting feed back. But I only see JC talking with Bill Lazor. Gibbs is never talking with any of the players. He's just on the head phones with Saunders. Since when does Bill Lazor know more than Gibbs? Why isn't Saunders on the sidelines?

This is the stuff I'm talking about. I would send Lazor upstairs and have Al on the sidelines. Tough shit if he doesn't like it. Make some damn adjustments to try and score more points instead of staying put. Get our ass involved in the game instead of sitting there with your arms folded and trusting the assistants to do everything.

That's quite an assumption to make to say that he's not involved in strategy, and just sits there doing nothing. True he does not call plays, but that's pretty extreme to just assume he stands around doing nothing.

[BDBohnzie]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

That 30 yard pass play was pathetic. But you know what? The defense gave up 15 points. That should be good enough to win a home game against Buffalo.

And it would have been if the offensive line didn't break down protection inside their own 5 and give up a safety...

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well see, you illustrate my point right there. Does Saunders calls the plays or does he not? As soon as we see a running play, everyone instinctively says "Oh well that's Gibbs handcuffing the team again." But is he even calling the plays there?

I think only person here has even made any mention of the fact that the defense gave up a 30 yard pass right down the middle to set up the game-winning field goal by the Bills. Where's the outcry over that? Where's the outcry over half the offensive line false starting at a critical 4th and 1 (I think that's what it was) in the red zone on the first drive? Things like that, when they are on this site, are usually buried in threads.

Look I'm not saying absolve Gibbs of any blame. I'm just echoing 70Chip's well-founded sentiments that more needs to go the players way. You win as a team, you lose as a team.

It's been well established that Saunders calls the plays, but it's been equally established that Gibbs sets the game plan and the tone for the plays he wants.. If Gibbs says 'Let's take some time off the clock' that means Saunders has to call runs and short passes to adhere to his wishes.. Even if he's not calling the plays his fingerprints are all over it..

I think it's time for Gibbs to go.. His record speaks for itself, he's under .500 and we're heading in the wrong direction.. ANY other coach would either be gone by now or there wouldn't be one single rational person on here saying 'give him more time.' Here are the ugly facts:
Below .500 record
5 losses with a 2nd half lead this year-15 overall since '04,
Currently on a 4 game losing streak
Every year a losing streak of more than 3 games
One (ONE!) winning streak of more than 2 games since '04
One playoff appearance
One winning record since '04
Team is older and more snug to the salary cap (although we always work that out) than it was when he took over..

How can anyone convince me that it's working out for the betterment of the franchise and/or there is any reason to expect/anticipate/believe that next year will be any better under the current regime..

For Campbell's continuity sake I hope we keep Saunders, but the rest of the staff, Grilliams included, can be shown the door as far as I am concerned.

[redsk1]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

That 30 yard pass play was pathetic. But you know what? The defense gave up 15 points. That should be good enough to win a home game against Buffalo.

No doubt. Enough said right there. The D was not the problem.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

That's quite an assumption to make to say that he's not involved in strategy, and just sits there doing nothing. True he does not call plays, but that's pretty extreme to just assume he stands around doing nothing.

pay close attention tonight and see if gibbs is talking strategy with any of the players. watch when jc come over to the sidelines. see who he's talking to. it's always lazor.