Kudos to Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato

[memphisskin]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Where did this idea come from that a playoff team getting a new coach starts over from square one?! Last year two coaches inherited playoff teams: Wade Phillips and Norv Turner. Phillips significantly improved the regular season performance of the team while equaling his predecessor's playoff record, while Turner, after a rocky transition, took this group of Chargers players to their first two playoff victories and a narrow one score championship game loss to the undefeated Patriots. Additionally, Mike Tomlin took over a playoff caliber roster and brought home a division championship.

So I don't agree that a new coach inheriting a completely intact playoff roster necessarily equals a regression. In fact, recent history suggests the contrary.

I think the issue with Zorn is his experience level, the three coaches you mentioned had been coordinators before and Turner and Phillips had been head coaches at multiple stops. I don't mean to be pessimistic, but rather realistic. We all saw what happened when Saunders first installed his offense, there are going to be hiccups.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by memphisskin

I think the issue with Zorn is his experience level, the three coaches you mentioned had been coordinators before and Turner and Phillips had been head coaches at multiple stops. I don't mean to be pessimistic, but rather realistic. We all saw what happened when Saunders first installed his offense, there are going to be hiccups.

Tomlin was a coordinator for exactly one year. I would say that, if its true that the Skins hired someone whose lack of experience precludes him from immediate success, then Vinny and Dan don't deserve any kudos at all. I for one am willing to give both them and Zorn the benefit of the doubt, and everything I have heard from training camp suggests that Zorn has hit the ground running.

By your reasoning we would be much better off with Fassel now, who achieved more with the Giants than either Phillips or Turner ever did with their former teams. Personally, while "hiccups" are perhaps inevitable, I don't lament us passing on Fassel for Zorn. I also think that, had we gone with Fassel, the exact same people would be complaining now.

[memphisskin]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Tomlin was a coordinator for exactly one year. I would say that, if its true that the Skins hired someone whose lack of experience precludes him from immediate success, then Vinny and Dan don't deserve any kudos at all. I for one am willing to give both them and Zorn the benefit of the doubt, and everything I have heard from training camp suggests that Zorn has hit the ground running.

By your reasoning we would be much better off with Fassel now, who achieved more with the Giants than either Phillips or Turner ever did with their former teams. Personally, while "hiccups" are perhaps inevitable, I don't lament us passing on Fassel for Zorn. I also think that, had we gone with Fassel, the exact same people would be complaining now.

I would be happy to debate Zorn-Tomlinson-Phillips and the whole Fassel fiasco, but this thread is about kudos to Vinny and Danny, which I think is a little premature. The results of this draft won't be known for a couple of years, but we already know that we didn't address the defensive or offensive lines, which are both old.

Judging the offseason as a whole, including the coaching search, its seems that this thread is much ado about nothing. We were finally quiet in free agency, but we did nothing to address the holes on our offensive and defensive lines. Our coaching search took a month, we hired an offensive coordinator (who I thought would be an excellent QB coach for Campbell) before a head coach and then turned around and acted like we had our guy the whole time. I want to see the Skins win, we'll see if that happens this year or not but I'm not ready to go sucking on everybody's popsicles just because Dan didn't write any checks for one summer.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by memphisskin

I would be happy to debate Zorn-Tomlinson-Phillips and the whole Fassel fiasco, but this thread is about kudos to Vinny and Danny, which I think is a little premature. The results of this draft won't be known for a couple of years, but we already know that we didn't address the defensive or offensive lines, which are both old.

Judging the offseason as a whole, including the coaching search, its seems that this thread is much ado about nothing. We were finally quiet in free agency, but we did nothing to address the holes on our offensive and defensive lines. Our coaching search took a month, we hired an offensive coordinator (who I thought would be an excellent QB coach for Campbell) before a head coach and then turned around and acted like we had our guy the whole time. I want to see the Skins win, we'll see if that happens this year or not but I'm not ready to go sucking on everybody's popsicles just because Dan didn't write any checks for one summer.

What holes exist on the OL that needed filling? We drafted a backup C/G in Rienhart and have Heyer & Wade to backup at tackle. Hopefully we don't need them as much as they played last year, but if so it wasn't a disaster.

[djnemo65]

I believe Paintrain and I are thinking the same way about this.

[Schneed10]

Too many posts to respond to by quoting, so I'll do it all here:

1) The change from Gibbs to Zorn could very well be an upgrade on offense, who knows. But I promise you, not in the motivational category. Gibbs' December record was crazy. Let's not forget that we were a very mediocre team until Taylor died and Gibbs willed the team forward, and Collins came in to execute a system he's been in long enough to teach it at Harvard.

2) Wade Phillips and Mike Tomlin, huh. Let's see, what do they have in common? Oh yeah, they took over a team with unquestioned leaders at QB who had kick-ass seasons in their recent pasts. The year before Wade took over, Romo started 10 games after taking over for Bledsoe, getting red hot, and posting a QB rating of 95. Tomlin took over a team that went 8-8 the year before and guided them to a 10-6 record a year later. That 8-8 season, Roethlisberger was coming off his career worst season. Reason? He had Hines Ward and a bunch of chumps to throw to. Last year Tomlin takes over, and Santonio Holmes and Heath Miller grow out of their rookie seasons into decent targets. Point being, give an established QB like Big Ben multiple reliable targets, and he's going to do well. Norv Turner? He took over Phillip Rivers, who's nothing to write home about. Maybe that's why the Chargers took a step back last year in regular season record. They still made the playoffs because they easily have the most talent in the NFL. They made the playoffs DESPITE Norv.

Let's think about another instant success. Sean Payton... Drew Brees.

Point being? What do we have at QB? A question mark, that's what. Campbell is promising, but it's not like taking over a real strong QB situation. Phillips, Tomlin, and Payton aren't comparable situations. It's not fair to Zorn.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Too many posts to respond to by quoting, so I'll do it all here:

1) The change from Gibbs to Zorn could very well be an upgrade on offense, who knows. But I promise you, not in the motivational category. Gibbs' December record was crazy. Let's not forget that we were a very mediocre team until Taylor died and Gibbs willed the team forward, and Collins came in to execute a system he's been in long enough to teach it at Harvard.

2) Wade Phillips and Mike Tomlin, huh. Let's see, what do they have in common? Oh yeah, they took over a team with unquestioned leaders at QB who had kick-ass seasons in their recent pasts. The year before Wade took over, Romo started 10 games after taking over for Bledsoe, getting red hot, and posting a QB rating of 95. Tomlin took over a team that went 8-8 the year before and guided them to a 10-6 record a year later. That 8-8 season, Roethlisberger was coming off his career worst season. Reason? He had Hines Ward and a bunch of chumps to throw to. Last year Tomlin takes over, and Santonio Holmes and Heath Miller grow out of their rookie seasons into decent targets. Point being, give an established QB like Big Ben multiple reliable targets, and he's going to do well. Norv Turner? He took over Phillip Rivers, who's nothing to write home about. Maybe that's why the Chargers took a step back last year in regular season record. They still made the playoffs because they easily have the most talent in the NFL. They made the playoffs DESPITE Norv.

Let's think about another instant success. Sean Payton... Drew Brees.

Point being? What do we have at QB? A question mark, that's what. Campbell is promising, but it's not like taking over a real strong QB situation. Phillips, Tomlin, and Payton aren't comparable situations. It's not fair to Zorn.

Well it goes without saying that those of us who are optimistic about next season are absolutely assuming Campbell will develop into the player we think he can be: a legitimate winning NFL starting quarterback. To argue that, should our QB not take some significant steps forward over the course of the next year we will be in trouble, is one thing. To argue that the change at coach somehow precludes this is another entirely. I for one think that our offense will be improved next year, and thus remain optimistic.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Well it goes without saying that those of us who are optimistic about next season are absolutely assuming Campbell will develop into the player we think he can be: a legitimate winning NFL starting quarterback. To argue that, should our QB not take some significant steps forward over the course of the next year we will be in trouble, is one thing. To argue that the change at coach somehow precludes this is another entirely. I for one think that our offense will be improved next year, and thus remain optimistic.

On the bolded part, I vehemently disagree. The fact that Campbell has not yet established himself as a stud QB, COMBINED with the fact that he'll be working under a new coach in a new system in Zorn, reduces the chances that the offense will click successfully in year 1.

Because with Brees, Payton got a QB who already had a stud season. With Roethisberger, Tomlin got a guy who had led his team to a SB win. With Romo, Wade got a guy who set the world on fire in the final 10 games of the previous season.

Turner? He got an up and coming QB in Rivers, who hadn't yet arrived. What happened? The coaching change resulted in a worse record than the year before. Now when you've got that line, plus Tomlinson, plus that defense, you can still make the playoffs. But the Redskins don't have SD's talent to get them through the flux of a coaching change.

There's not a lot of precedence for instant success when you combine a new head coach with a not-yet-established NFL QB. Can you think of any recently? I can't.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

On the bolded part, I vehemently disagree. The fact that Campbell has not yet established himself as a stud QB, COMBINED with the fact that he'll be working under a new coach in a new system in Zorn, reduces the chances that the offense will click successfully in year 1.

Because with Brees, Payton got a QB who already had a stud season. With Roethisberger, Tomlin got a guy who had led his team to a SB win. With Romo, Wade got a guy who set the world on fire in the final 10 games of the previous season.

Turner? He got an up and coming QB in Rivers, who hadn't yet arrived. What happened? The coaching change resulted in a worse record than the year before. Now when you've got that line, plus Tomlinson, plus that defense, you can still make the playoffs. But the Redskins don't have SD's talent to get them through the flux of a coaching change.

There's not a lot of precedence for instant success when you combine a new head coach with a not-yet-established NFL QB. Can you think of any recently? I can't.

Well if you are going to bring up the Sean Peyton example from that year you would also have to talk about the Jets and Mangini, who while not necessarily having a not yet established qb, did have a tumultuous situation that I would think to be worse than ours. As for your other examples, fair enough, but I think it’s important to point out that all those players got better under their new coaches (Rivers notwithstanding). Roethilsberger had followed a disastrous Superbowl performance with an even more disastrous season, and I don't think many were expecting him to grow into the elite passer he became last year. Romo, after a hot start in 06, had faded down the stretch and was not a sure thing by any means. Rivers? I think his struggles had more to do with his deficiencies as a player than with the coaching change, as Turner, in spite of his abundant faults, has a stellar record of working with quarterbacks. Even Brees was not known to be more than a good QB prior to his teaming with Peyton, who brought his game to another level.

There are also examples (Alex Smith comes to mind) of players who greatly regressed under new tutelage. But my point is that historical precedence does exist for QB's getting better after a coaching change.

I think your position is prudent and almost certainly represents the conventional wisdom around the league vis-à-vis the Skins; however, after a summer of Kool Aid drinking I am buying into Zorn and banking that JC will take a huge step forward this year. I also took a trip to Amsterdam this summer – now that's some Kool Aid they have over there! But that's another story...

[Defensewins]

In the past I have been a critic of D&V for their high dollar/ high profile/high bust rate of the past (2001 to Gibbs arrival) as it relates to free agency and player personnel decisions. We consistently had the highest payroll combined with consistent losing record. Not a great track record.
Which is why some people do not like VC because Dan Snyder seems to hold a diffrent standard for him. DS keeps VC around for some reason despite some really poor seasons. Maybe by firing VC it would require DS to admit to poor FO management?
Then Gibbs arrived and our poor habits diminished. We made the playoffs for the first time in years.
I am glad to see D&V have stayed on the Gibbs course since Gibbs left.

It is too early to give Kudos, but I like what they have done so far since Gibbs left..so far.
I do not like to second guess player personnel until the players have a chance to prove themselves on the field. But the only move I have second guessed recently is the 3rd draft pick (TE). At a time when we are getting very old in the offensive and defensive lines, a 2nd team TE seemed like a luxury pick. We will see.

My only concern is we are one of the oldest teams in the NFL.
Guys like Jansen have have not made it through a season with out missing significant time since gas was under $2 a gallon. Our starting LG is pushing 40. Two of our better DL (C. Griffen and Phillip Daniels) and Shawn Springs are old.
My only concern is their replacements have not stepped up on the field and proved they are ready to take over.

[MTK]

Pete Kendall turns 35 tomorrow. Old for a football player, yes. But saying he's pushing 40 is stretching it just a bit.

Or did I miss something and 35 is the new 40?

[skinsfan69]

No way does Kendall make it all 16 games this year. I know Buges is getting this guy Reinhart ready.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

No way does Kendall make it all 16 games this year. I know Buges is getting this guy Reinhart ready.

He might not... but it's worth noting the last time he missed more than a start or two was back in 2001. Even with his bad knees he's been a rock.