6 WEEKS AGO: Trade Ramsey, Bench/trade Gardner

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

..... No one can come here and say that Tim Hasslebeck should be starting for this team over Patrick Ramsey, and actually mean it......

This is exactly the kind of commnet that irks me about some of the rabid Ramsey fans. Some of you folks are so blind in defending Ramsey, that you say some outlandish things.
The guy with the most physical talent is not always the best QB/football player. Just because Patrick Ramsey has a stronger arm does not make him a better QB.
Look at New England for example. Drew Bledsoe, the first overall pick in the 1993 Draft. He has been to been to a couple superbowls and been elected to a couple of probowls. His arm strength is unquestionable.
Drew is struggling and gets hurt. In comes Tom Brady, a sixth round draft pick (last round) that was not even a starter in college until his senior year. Tom Brady does not have a strong arm like Bledsoe. But he is a smart football player and QB. Brady excels at reading defense's and making good/quick decsions (frequently compared to Montana).
Even after Brady helped New England win their 1st superbowl there was still half the patriots fans that wanted Bledsoe to start again because he is a better athlete and has a stronger arm. I think some of you might falling into this mind set. Bledsoe is now with Buffalo and still holds on to the ball to long. Brady won yet another super bowl.

[memphisskin]

[QUOTE=Defensewins]This is exactly the kind of commnet that irks me about some of the rabid Ramsey fans. Some of you folks are so blind in defending Ramsey, that you say some outlandish things.
The guy with the most physical talent is not always the best QB/football player. Just because Patrick Ramsey has a stronger arm does not make him a better QB.
Look at New England for example. QUOTE]

I feel you on the Bledsoe/Ramsey comparison, but Bledsoe was a 7th year vet. You knew what you were getting with him. I've seen at least five different incarnations of Ramsey, I don't think anyone could peg down his style of play, unless you say it's "confused". And anytime anyone wants to bring up the Hasselbeck as a starter routine, I bring up last year's Dallas game in which he spotted Terrence Newman running free three times.

Should Hasselbeck get a shot? Unless the top two guys get hurt, I don't see how. You've got one qb who we just signed to a $43 million dollar deal. At second string you've got a 3rd year guy who was a former #1 pick. I think 2 games is an awfully short leash to start pulling for the #3 guy. If Brunell and Ramsey were singlehandedly holding the team back, maybe. But the problem yesterday was the entire offense. Wideouts dropped routine passes, Portis fumbles twice after fumbling 3 times all of last season, blocking assignments were blown (one of which on the last play of the game with only three rushers).

[Gmanc711]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Look at New England for example. Drew Bledsoe, the first overall pick in the 1993 Draft. He has been to been to a couple superbowls and been elected to a couple of probowls. His arm strength is unquestionable.
Drew is struggling and gets hurt. In comes Tom Brady, a sixth round draft pick (last round) that was not even a starter in college until his senior year. Tom Brady does not have a strong arm like Bledsoe. But he is a smart football player and QB. Brady excels at reading defense's and making good/quick decsions (frequently compared to Montana).
Even after Brady helped New England win their 1st superbowl there was still half the patriots fans that wanted Bledsoe to start again because he is a better athlete and has a stronger arm. I think some of you might falling into this mind set. Bledsoe is now with Buffalo and still holds on to the ball to long. Brady won yet another super bowl.

If Tim Hasslebeck had Tom Brady's Record, there wouldnt be this conversation. But he is 1-5 as a starter. Brady lost I belive 1 start the year he took over for Bledsoe, he went 9-7 the next year and then won another Superbowl. Tim played well, dont get me wrong, but we didnt win.

[Hogskin]

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

If Tim Hasslebeck had Tom Brady's Record, there wouldnt be this conversation. But he is 1-5 as a starter. Brady lost I belive 1 start the year he took over for Bledsoe, he went 9-7 the next year and then won another Superbowl. Tim played well, dont get me wrong, but we didnt win.

On the surface that sounds like a good argument, but there is a lot more to winning than the QB. (Just ask Sonny Jurgenson, one of the best pure passers ever). That NE team was a WHOLE lot better, especially on defense, and had a WHOLE lot better coaching staff, top to bottom. All you can take from TH's games from last year are a look at his skills. And you can get very little from that, because he did not go through training camp and had VERY little practice with the team prior to his first start. All I would say about TH is he should get another look at some point, especially after having what seemed like a successful training camp. But we know a lot more than that about PR. It just seems that some of us have different opinions of what we have seen the past 25 months.

[Gmanc711]

Originally Posted by Hogskin

But we know a lot more than that about PR. It just seems that some of us have different opinions of what we have seen the past 25 months.

I agree. It looks like next Monday we can all sit back and hopefully see what he can do. Cause the early reports are that they are expect Ramsey to start next week.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

If Tim Hasslebeck had Tom Brady's Record, there wouldnt be this conversation. But he is 1-5 as a starter. Brady lost I belive 1 start the year he took over for Bledsoe, he went 9-7 the next year and then won another Superbowl. Tim played well, dont get me wrong, but we didnt win.

I was only referring to the similarities in the style of QB's, not records. Brady was 0-0 as a starter when he took over for Bledsoe, so what does win - loss records have to do with anything? It is not always about win-loss when you rate a QB, but how well the QB played. Your QB can play perfect and your defense can lose the game. Which is exactly the opposite of what happened to the Redskins on Sunday.
In my comparison was just referring to the similarities of playing styles of the QB's.
Bledsoe/Ramsey are 1 st round picks with strong arms; big guys that are not very mobile. They also both like to hold on to the ball too long and have been accused of being slow at deciding where to throw it. They also are not good at just throwing the ball away when all their receivers are covered. they sometimes force a throw that leads to an interception. They both get sacked alot (from holding the ball to long-coverage sacks). But they are both very good at throwing the long passes. They are head cases. Their decision making skills are not very good right now. What is holding tham back is not their physical skiis, it is their mental skills.

Brady/Hasselbeck were unwanted players coming out of college. They do not have the strongest arms. They are mobile. They are quick to get rid of the ball. They have quick release. They are better at the short to intermediate passes. Not good with the long ball. The comparisons stop there though, Brady has deveploped into one of the best QB's in the game. Hasselbeck is lucky to still be in the NFL. But Gibbs likes him and he will get a shot sometime.
It is telling that after watching extensive film of the Redskins of the last two years, Gibbs decided to go out and get Brunnell. He commited alot of money to him as well. I think that tells you Ramsey has been slow to develop and is not ready.

[That Guy]

We lost because of 3 INTS in the 2 half of this game.

no, we lost when the giants put up 17 points on brunell and portis in the first half, ramsey just didn't win it...

ramsey, in his last 12 games has thrown 15 TDs and 12 ints... in five games hasselbeck has thrown 5 TDs and 1 INT... that's less TDs and more INTs per game

if ramsey is bad, hasselbeck is horrible...

1.More NFL experience that Ramsey. (Throws the ball away)
2. Hasselbeck's first game as a Redskin was a victory over the Dolphins. He replaced Ramsey against a hostile Miami crowd and won.
3. Gibbs asked the question in training camp, who's that guy making those passes? He then said, we may have 3 QB's fighting for 1# spot.

1. not true
2. so what? ramsey has won games too, and besides, tim lost that game
3. he may have said that, but guess what? after that 2 int game, timmy fell back out of that competition... he never played 1st string anyways (which is harder )

5.Plays with passion. Unlike Ramsey, who looks like he's not enjoying his opportunity that few people have the priviledge to enjoy.
6. Can motivate this team to execute with confidence out of the huddle.

those are both BS, you're not in the huddle and you don't talk to them, so you don't know, sorry.

You thought Ramsey was going to grow into a great player like Tom Brady, Joey Harrington or Carson Palmer

this was quoted to matty, but joey spent a lot of time sucking before he was worth looking at, and carson sat out an entire year in his system before playing... ramsey has sat out 1 game.

shane, trading ramsey would have left us with no recourse in the event that tim also sucked... we'd be even worse off...

manning went 3-13 his first year in a new system... its not something you pick up overnight... there's no promise tim will be any better at all, so trading away depth at QB would be silly... part of the problem is the massive turnover and new systems etc, it takes time for everyone to click... its hard when all the WRs practice and get rhythm with another QB and then you get shoved in to take over and make something happen... chemistry isn't made overnight (thats for the players and the system)...

PR telegraphs plays and hold on to the ball too long, but tim has a weak arm and throws more ints and less TDs... everytime you switch out players, it just makes it harder on everyone to try and keep everything together.

[Redskins_P]

I love it. All very good points That Guy.

[SUNRA]

You don't understand why people including myself will stick up for Hasselbeck is really shocking. Hasselbeck is paid to come in and clean up what the other two QB's cannot due to injury or mistakes. I don't care who we win with. Some of you are so absorbed in this guy that you would rather lose with him rather than win with a QB who is not as good as him. That's ignorance to the highest degree. Gmanc711 some of us were calling for Ramsey's head last year. He was not ready for the NFL last year and the same is clearly apparent today. This one game is not the reason I am burning my bridge, it goes back to the 2003 season. Our record was 5-11. Spurrier's fault right.

If Hasselbeck is not in the league with Ramsey, then Ramsey couldn't hold Joey Harrington's chinstrap. A Harrington is what we want. Not Bledsoe.

[That Guy]

I stand corrected. Hasselbeck had 4 INTs against the 1# defense in the NFL . What games did Hasselbeck win out of the 5 ?

he beat a giants team that had already quit and was well into a 0-8 finish to a 4-4 start that season.

in int/game, int/pass, TD/pass, td/game, win/game, PR beats TH... i think the depth chart is right... that doesn't mean PR is manning, but saying he's washed up is dumb.

[Hogskin]

Originally Posted by That Guy

but saying he's washed up is dumb.

Well, I said the same thing about Norman Snead, Desmond Howard, and Heath Shuler at this point in THEIR careers, too. I guess I was DUMB then, too. What you just don't get, is that it has nothing to do with wins and losses. It has to do with basic fundamentals that are seriously wrong, that he can not make any improvement on in 2 years. All of these guys had issues they made NO progress on in their first couple seasons. When that happens, guys, it just "ain't gonna get no better..."

[SmootSmack]

I don't think Hasselbeck is a clear cut better choice than Ramsey. But I think there is cause for concern with Ramsey. I'm not even going to consider the interceptions. As already mentioned, one of them was a miscommunication anyway.

But it is worrisome that Ramsey still doesn't seem to have pocket presence. And it's still aggravating how he keeps telegraphing his passes. Everyone knows exactly where he's going. In baseball, they talk about the difference between being a pitcher and a thrower. I think the same holds true in football. Ramsey can throw the ball but he's not a true quarterback yet-pocket presence, check off receivers. You'd like to think that by now he'd have improved in those categories but he hasn't.

[SkinsRock]

Everyone needs to remember that Ramsey was taught by Spurrier to completely change the way he throws the ball and the way he reads a defense...and now to change it again. Plus, until now, he has never been in a real NFL system. Give the guy a little slack. Yeah, the INT's we're horrible, and he has bad habits that are being worked on, but give him a little time and he'll be fine. One positive I noticed was that his foot appears to be healed...he did seem to move around better. That said, if healthy, Brunell needs to stay as the starter. I was one of the ones pulling for Patrick to win the job, but it is clear that he isn't quite ready yet. If Brunell is hurt, he is still our best option though...I like Hasselbeck, but he is an average back-up at best (great for a #3 QB).

[cpayne5]

He hasn't had a chance in real games to improve!

There's only so much improvement you can do in practice. Some parts of football you learn only by playing in games.

[bedlamVR]

Don't give up on Ramsey just yet he needs to relax. He is always going out there with the world on his shoulders he is so pent up trying to win a game and not make any mistakes that is exactly what he does. Compare him now to his first games two years ago and his poise and cold blood decision making has gone because for the last two years he has been hearing footsteps.

Maybe he will never recover but he needs to be remined that Football is supposed to be fun and not just painful. We give up on him now and he will be the next Trent Green.

All he has to do is do his best and no more. Trying to over reach is getting him into the trouble we are seeing. Besides this seems a rediculous thread after one game. Those calling for Tim now may be reminded he has only been in football one year thow him to the lions before he is ready then you may ruin another talent.

If there is a new QB next year it is going to be someone on the roster hell Tom Tupa might be in with a shot... who knows