A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building

[That Guy]

rebuilding is kind of a myth. we've been "rebuilding" since when? norv? gibbs I?

after 3-4 years you start losing as many players as you get due to age/expiring contracts/etc. navigating might be a better word.

this year, for example. I expect our offense to be better, but our secondary and LB corp may be worse. that's more like a trade off than an upgrade, but those are the choices you make and you just hope that overall you've done enough to win more games. I think RGIII will be huge in that regard, maybe even in year 1 and 2, but that, talent for dollar, garcon and morgan are a bit borderline.

It's easy to upgrade your top 53 with sub $2mill/year deals. upgrading the top 22 usually takes real money, but it's important to pick correctly there, since the contracts kind of marry you to those players. when you pick incorrectly (mcnabb/haynesworth/etc etc) it really stunts the team, since you've waste time developing players and cap space not signing guys that could actually help you win. It's MUCH better to not sign someone over giving big money to the wrong guy. you can't win via free agency with a 50% hit rate (which is what vinny had). BA has done better on that front.

going foward there's only a couple bleh contracts left, and they're immediately disposable (hall etc) without big cap penalties for the most part (stupid jamal brown).

anyways, back the the question. I think shanny came i and did the house cleaning bit, wasted 2 years with the wrong QBs, and now I expect a solid season... if RGIII had been here two years ago, I'd expect playoffs now, but the rookie QB learning curve can be harsh, so that tempers things. I don't really buy rebuilding as a concept, but I think once you've got the right QB you can't really be considered rebuilding, only competing for the postseason (and if you're not, it's either the wrong QB or a mismanaged roster/player aquisition system).

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by That Guy

this year, for example. I expect our offense to be better, but our secondary and LB corp may be worse. that's more like a trade off than an upgrade, but those are the choices you make and you just hope that overall you've done enough to win more games. I think RGIII will be huge in that regard, maybe even in year 1 and 2, but that, talent for dollar, garcon and morgan are a bit borderline.

It's easy to upgrade your top 53 with sub $2mill/year deals. upgrading the top 22 usually takes real money, but it's important to pick correctly there, since the contracts kind of marry you to those players. when you pick incorrectly (mcnabb/haynesworth/etc etc) it really stunts the team, since you've waste time developing players and cap space not signing guys that could actually help you win. It's MUCH better to not sign someone over giving big money to the wrong guy. you can't win via free agency with a 50% hit rate (which is what vinny had). BA has done better on that front.

Are MS/BA hitting at even close to a 50% rate in FA? My sense is that they are not, which is why we've been so poor on the field the last two years.

Their "successful" acquisitions have been Gaffney, and probably Kerrigan someday soon right? Trent Williams and Kory L, maybe? After that, there's a lot of "looks good in limited time" but then I think we need to account for why time is so limited on a team with so many holes. Hankerson and Jenkins: injury. That's easy. But Helu had basically no competition at RB last year until Royster got hot in the last three games.

I guess we'll see.

[REDSKINS4ever]

I wouldn't call what the Redskins did at the quarterback position last season rebuilding with QB being the most important position on the field. Mike Shanahan did no better than guessing. Both Beck and Grossman were below average in terms and of play, and Shanahan went with both of them and we know how awfully that turned out. With veteran leadership already on the roster, we had a good draft last spring in conjunction with that. NFL teams don't rebuild in this era like in the past. Teams just get better at the positions they need to, and improve until they are contenders and champions.

[NAVY CHIEF]

Who Knows? I'm tired of ****ing loosing. The NFL is set up so a 5-11 team can go 11-5 next season. If RG3 is who they think he is then we can be very competitive next year.

[Chief X_Phackter]

We are who we think we are!!!

[REDSKINS4ever]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. With the additions of Garcon and Morgan and possibly drafting RG3 or Andrew Luck, to speculate feels good. The defense should improve also. But it's all speculation. It all looks good on paper. I remember the Pittsburgh Steelers making it to the AFC championship game in Big Ben's rookie season and in some regards this Redskin team is shaping up to be just as good as those 2004 Steelers. A good running game, decent passing game, rookie quarterback, and a high ranking defense got them that far. Can the Redskins be similar in 2012? Remains to be seen.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

The Redskins cashed in everything to build the best possible passing game they could have going into 2012; that doesn't strike one as patient or building.

The cost of trading up to select either Griffin or Luck wasn't ideal but it was acceptable.
The FO/staff almost had to make that move if for nothing more then self preservation, thankfully both are perceived by the media/fanbase as 'worthy' prospects.
Despite how I feel about Tannehill, his perception from the media/fanbase doesn't come with the same 'worthy' label and therefore doesn't come with the same grace period as with Griffin/Luck.
And imo this FO/staff tenure beyond this season is very closely linked with the fan perception.
In short they cannot afford to lose the fans.
And not trading up and drafting Tannehill would have created an uphill battle with the fanbase from the start because of the media/fanbase perception of Tannehill being a 'reach' or 'settling'.

However the decision to rebuild the WR corps with Garcon and Morgan especially after the news of our league imposed FA/cap space sanctions leaves me somewhat puzzled.

I guess at the end of the day I wouldn't place adding 'explosive' plays to the passing game via a offseason focus on FA WRs wouldn't have been my idea of how to best use our limited FA resources.

Garcon and Morgan's contracts suggest that adding more 'explosive' WRs was the number 1 focus this offseason which tells me that lack of 'explosive' plays was the fault of the WRs alone.
But, my eyes tell me different.
My eyes tell me that Rex Grossman was the major cause of the lack of explosive plays.
Even the people that dislike Mc5 must admit that the passing game created more explosive plays with the same receiving corps.
My eyes tell me that upgrade from Rex to a rookie QB but Griffin specifically stand to improve the number of explosive plays on his own.
A key factor for increasing 'explosive' plays is creating time.
Griffin can create time on his own another way to increase time is through pass protection.
But, RT is a position they have yet to address and there was a tailor made RT for this system on the market.

I believe that building a passing game with a young/rookie QB takes time and that having veteran WRs that know the scheme as opposed to learning the scheme can only make the transition smoother.
Other then the rare true No.1 WR I think that WRs are compliments to the core of the team as opposed to the core of the team itself.
Imo RT(OL), LB and S are core positions that need to be addressed this offseason.
Especially when Mike S. was talking about how important a solid defense, strong OL and running game are for a young/rookie QBs success.
But then again Mike Shanahan will say anything.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 30gut

The cost of trading up to select either Griffin or Luck wasn't ideal but it was acceptable.
The FO/staff almost had to make that move if for nothing more then self preservation, thankfully both are perceived by the media/fanbase as 'worthy' prospects.
Despite how I feel about Tannehill, his perception from the media/fanbase doesn't come with the same 'worthy' label and therefore doesn't come with the same grace period as with Griffin/Luck.
And imo this FO/staff tenure beyond this season is very closely linked with the fan perception.
In short they cannot afford to lose the fans.

However the decision to rebuild the WR corps with Garcon and Morgan after the news of our league imposed FA/cap space sanctions leaves me somewhat puzzled especially consider the other needs like RT, S (both), ILB, RG.

Garcon and Morgan's contracts suggest that adding more 'explosive' WRs was the number 1 focus this offseason which tells me that lack of 'explosive' plays was the fault of the WRs alone.
But, my eyes tell me different.
My eyes tell me that Rex Grossman was the major cause of the lack of explosive plays.
Even the people that dislike Mc5 must admit that the passing game created more explosive plays with the same receiving corps.
My eyes tell me that upgrade even from a rookie QB but Griffin specifically stand to improve the number of explosive plays on his own.
Imo a key factor for increasing 'explosive' plays is creating time.
Griffin can create time on his own another way to increase time is through pass protection.
But, RT is a position they have yet to address and there was a tailor made RT for this system on the market.

I guess at the end of the day I wouldn't place adding 'explosive' plays to the passing game via a offseason focus on FA WRs wouldn't have been my idea of how to best use our limited FA resources.

I believe that building a passing game with a young/rookie QB takes time and that having veteran WRs that know the scheme as opposed to learning the scheme can only make the transition smoother.
Other then the rare true No.1 WR I think that WRs are compliments to the core of the team as opposed to the core of the team itself.
Imo RT(OL), LB and S are core positions.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that even if you're right and merely getting Robert Griffin fixes the problem of lacking explosive players, that they still replaced players like Armstrong (who I still believe in) and Moss (who I no longer believe in) because they don't believe in them.

The problem of course is not that they saw their available cap room as an avenue to solve a perceived problem at receiver. The problem is that their attribution of our offensive struggles to our quarterbacks and receivers has prevented them from seeing the other problems.

They could have bargain shopped at receiver and probably improved competition by as much as they did. Clearly, they weren't looking for competition. They just don't think Moss or Armstrong can start in the NFL anymore (and in 2010, I will grant you that they were an excellent top two dragged down by the corpse of Joey Galloway). I mean, Early Doucet was out there for a while. Chaz Schilens was out there. Jerome Simpson is STILL out there. Jerricho Cotchery, Braylon Edwards: still free agents.

If the contracts for Morgan and Garcon were to be voided today by the evil spirit of John Mara, we could easily replace them both at 1/10th the cost. At least for the 2012 season.

And it's obvious they still like Jammal Brown at RT. Shanahan thinks he just hasn't been healthy. I'm not sure why he thinks this year will be any different, but that's what he thinks.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that even if you're right and merely getting Robert Griffin fixes the problem of lacking explosive players, that they still replaced players like Armstrong (who I still believe in) and Moss (who I no longer believe in) because they don't believe in them.....
......They could have bargain shopped at receiver and probably improved competition by as much as they did. Clearly, they weren't looking for competition. They just don't think Moss or Armstrong can start in the NFL anymore (and in 2010, I will grant you that they were an excellent top two dragged down by the corpse of Joey Galloway). I mean, Early Doucet was out there for a while. Chaz Schilens was out there. Jerome Simpson is STILL out there. Jerricho Cotchery, Braylon Edwards: still free agents.

If the contracts for Morgan and Garcon were to be voided today by the evil spirit of John Mara, we could easily replace them both at 1/10th the cost. At least for the 2012 season.

And it's obvious they still like Jammal Brown at RT. Shanahan thinks he just hasn't been healthy. I'm not sure why he thinks this year will be any different, but that's what he thinks.

No lie, I dry heaved when I read your last paragraph and I hope in my heart of hearts that its not true (even though all signs point towards it).
It galls me that this franchise has gone so long without a starting caliber RT.
Hopefully they'll get lucky and draft our Jared Veldeer in the 3rd or Willie Smith emerges as an NFL caliber RT.
But, man I would feel much better about the chances of our rookie QB with a more certain soluton at RT.

I don't think Moss production/performance warrants being replaced this year but that's a discussion we've already had.
If Moss is still around come training camp I have no doubt that he will play his way on the team and that there will be reports of Moss looking like 'the best WR in camp'.
But, I agree that if they wanted to replace Moss they could/should have baragain shopped for WRs.
I mentioned Harry Douglass in the Garcon/Morgan thread along with some of the options you mentioned; but that's spilled milk now I guess.
Garcon and Morgan don't lack for talent/ability I just hope their signings don't preclude addressing other needs.

The problem of course is not that they saw their available cap room as an avenue to solve a perceived problem at receiver. The problem is that their attribution of our offensive struggles to our quarterbacks and receivers has prevented them from seeing the other problems.

I think this is the same problem.
(I excuse the QB position) but I think their conclusion that the offensive struggles were caused by the WR lead them to use the available cap room to address the WR problem.
And I believe addressing the WRs immediately during the initial stages of FA is a further evidence that our OC's focus is clearly on the passing game and that he has a lot of pull.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 30gut

I think this is the same problem.
(I excuse the QB position) but I think their conclusion that the offensive struggles were caused by the WR lead them to use the available cap room to address the WR problem.
And I believe addressing the WRs immediately during the initial stages of FA is a further evidence that our OC's focus is clearly on the passing game and that he has a lot of pull.

But this is all validation of what we've both been saying most of the last two years. I don't think Kyle is a bad OC either, but the problem is that there are a number of good DCs in this league and the ones that scheme back at Kyle on a drive to drive basis have great success. Rex and Rob Ryan in particular.

Not all teams have good DCs though, and the Shanahan's always come into games well prepared to attack weaknesses, so on the aggregate, we'll never post poor numbers as an offensive unit.

Good defensive teams can find our weaknesses (like the right side of the OL), and a big gamble the Redskins seem to be making is that Robert Griffin will be SO good in our system that you can attack all the weaknesses you want, and it wont matter. Our talent + scheme > your talent plus scheme.

Which when you have the recent history of the Redskins, is high on arrogance and short on substance, but at the end of the season we'll judge them on whether they were right/wrong or successful/unsuccessful, not arrogant or humble.

[Stuck in TX]

I think that we have been rebuilding since the fall of Cerrato. Offense: The year Shanny and Allen arrived we got a QB that our OC beleived in, but lacked the leadership to develop those skills. Without a veteran QB, Shannahan went after someone he thought could fill that role for Grossman (granted, he was DEAD wrong, but shanny is human and mistakes are made by every HC). Not saying it was because of McNabb, but we did see flashes (very tiny flashes) of brilliance from Grossman. Also, Allen was able to turn a few picks into a lot of picks and we now have a young core at offense. We also have three RBs that I would start tomorrow. Before Shanny it was just Portis or Betts and usually one of them was injured. We do not have a "threat" reciever....YET....but we all know that a quality WR rarely develops in his first or sometimes even second season (nor have we had a reliable QB to get the ball there). Offensive line has improved vastly in my opinion and I bet we could still find some pretty good line talent in the 3rd round this year, and thats assuming Allen doesnt find some way to turn the few picks we have into something in the 2nd or maybe more in the 3rd rounds. Deffense: 3-4 has been a bit slow to convert to, but show me a team that it was easy for. We got a steal in the draft last year at DE (good scouting), and we have quality LBs. We have seen better days at CB and S but thats another indication that we are rebuilding. We had a lot of old, mediocre players on our team when Haslett took over, and even then all that was left were players who were drafted specifically for 4-3. Over the past two years, we have built, in my opinion, an above average defense with a young, durable core. I also think it is an indication of the direction we are moving in. Landry fizzled and Otogwe was less than advertised. Just like with the offense, Allen has shown us he can work with what he has as far as picks go and quality can still exist in the 3rd round.

For the argument that we are not rebuilding because we "mortgaged our future" to get RG3 or Luck....This fanbase had many questions for Allen when Cerrato was fired. Where do we go from here? Allen showed us when he "sold the farm" that he is confident of who is available. Also, two QBs of that caliber don't come out of every draft. Getting a new QB in itself is an indication that we are rebuilding, and I think Allen has been trying and continues to try to show the fanbase that when given a few draft picks we can still get the job done in the draft. At this rate, I see the Redskins a force to be reckoned with for many years very soon. This year? Perhaps. It is for sure going to be interesting!

[30gut]

I think Kyle (and Mike) are banking on a productive offense fueled by the passing game.
An offense that is either good enough to make the team competitive or good enough to divert attention from the other flaws in the team and buy them more time.

If they don't upgrade the RT postion they're taking a huge risk.
Many great offense plans have been wrecked by lack of pass protection.

[GTripp0012]

I want to clarify this because I just re-read my last post and one of the parts I tried to emphasize gets lost in a wall of text.

The Redskins ABSOULTELY can modify Griffin's supporting cast in 2013 and 2014 based on the results and lessons from 2012.

But the CORE is Trent Williams, Kerrigan, and Robert Griffin (and Orakpo if they offer him as second contract). That can't be changed now. The Redskins are fresh out of resources to go in a different direction if the problem they find is that core simply isn't good enough.

Atlanta has the same problem, btw. They have Matt Ryan, Sean Weatherspoon, Julio Jones, Roddy White, and Michael Turner. They also have an excellent supporting cast. They just haven't won much with that core yet. I'm saying the Redskins could build perfectly around this group with their remaining resources, and end up stuck because they realize their core is good, not great.

[Schneed10]

I'll also add that the Redskins clearly were not planning to have $36 million in usable cap space yanked out from under them. If they win that fight, as I expect they will based on a legitimate legal argument, they'll at least get some of that space back in a settlement with the league.

That will allow for additional improvement to the surrounding cast. That helps more next year than it does this year - this issue will take too long to iron out before the free agent pool is depleted.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

If you're talking about 50% of draft picks missing, how does it stand to reason that suddenly Luck or Tannehill will have a better supporting cast next year because a first round pick?

Based on a 50/50 failure rate, that makes those odds even less likely they'll have a better supporting cast than RGIII.