Brandon Lloyd is not a bust!

[wbecker999]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Apparently Lloyd doesn't. As stated by ThatGuy, this is not new info. Perhaps this is why people were skeptical about your "not a bust" opinion from the beginning. Maybe next time before you go jumping down people's throats for disagreeing with you, you'll cut em some slack before calling them out.

When I jumped down peoples throats
The only rebuttal I was getting was along the lines of
"one catch doesn't define a career" witch was not implied in my message anyway.
Can anyone see how that was frustrating?

I apologize for offending anyone
I was trying to raise the level of this debate.

As for the topic it got peoples attention and turned out to have some pretty good arguments on each side.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by wbecker999

When I jumped down peoples throats
The only rebuttal I was getting was along the lines of
"one catch doesn't define a career" witch was not implied in my message anyway.
Can anyone see how that was frustrating?

I apologize for offending anyone
I was trying to raise the level of this debate.

As for the topic it got peoples attention and turned out to have some pretty good arguments on each side.

No problem. Just as a suggestion though, before venting frustration by jumping down people's throats, try to make sure that they understand your point and vice versa. That Guy's take on your original statement was certainly reasonable given prior debate by the board ON THIS VERY SUBJECT. In general, people here are pretty open to discussion and the type of misunderstanding involved here can be resolved without the need to get bent out of shape.

Unless, of course, offiss is involved in the debate. : )

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by wbecker999

When I jumped down peoples throats
The only rebuttal I was getting was along the lines of
"one catch doesn't define a career" witch was not implied in my message anyway.
Can anyone see how that was frustrating?

I apologize for offending anyone
I was trying to raise the level of this debate.

As for the topic it got peoples attention and turned out to have some pretty good arguments on each side.

that's a lie and compeltely untrue. you called me out for "not having any insight" (which you have yet to provide), and YOU made up that retarded argument so YOU could use it as a straw man. (i said one good catch doesn't cancel the fact that he goes mia for entire games at a time. if you can't see how warped you're making that, you really need to go back and try to read more carefully or get some help). it's total BS that you keep trying to put those words in my mouth when i NEVER SAID ANYTHING REMOTELY LIKE THAT. then you only use that one BS argument which YOU MADE UP AND EXISTS ONLY IN YOUR HEAD and ignore all the other points that were brought up.

that's doing nothing to raise the level of debate... in fact, you've pretty much refused to debate anything since i have yet to see a response to any of the points that have been mentioned or anything insightful that could possibly prove he's not a bust. if anything, you've been actively trying to avoid or lower the level of debate. oh yeah, and then you play off some stupid victim routine.

That's frustrating.

*worst stats for any starting WR in the super bowl era - no response.

*his ypc is NOT NEAR the best in the league like you said - no response.

*he's made multiple spats on the sidelines, a bad history in SF, and andre carter (when asked about lloyd's character) basically said "no comment" - you're only response is to cut him some slack, even though he's shown no improvement and refuses to accept blame for anything that goes wrong (and even said he sees absolutely no reason to ever change that kind of attitude).

*he's never had a 1,000 yard season, and the 49ers definitely didn't think he was worth keeping around at the vet min - no response

*goes mia for games - your response - what's backing that up - my response - look at the stats and box scores, it's pretty obvious, or watch the games.
"Like you went to a game and watched him and never got separation."
- like you went and saw him open by 20 yards every play.
that's another bullshit strawman and an amazing appearance of the "i'm right cause i said so" argument yet again. but that's useless cause there's no proof at all for what your saying or anything that rebuffs those stats. moss and cooley and even el produced just fine, so what?, was lloyd the victim of a vast right wing conspiracy? it makes no sense - he was even on the field for more snaps than el as a WR.

*plenty of good WRs put up stats with crappy QBs (in response to your "well, it's campbell's fault for not being peyton argument). check joe horn, check randy moss, check boldin and fitzgerald, check torry holt with a 3rd string QB, and i'm sure there's tons of other examples. - no response

if you're going "to raise the level of debate" how about responding to criticism of your position instead of shadowboxing strawmen and playing the victim?

i'm still waiting for that "insightful" reply.

[wbecker999]

*worst stats for any starting WR in the super bowl era - response

Ike Hilliard Tampa's # 2
2006 16 games 339 yds 10 ypc

Billy McMullen Vikings #2

2006 16 games 307 yds 13.3 ypc

Troy Brown
16 games 384yds 8.9 ypc

Brandan Jones
16 games 384 yds 14.2 yds per catch

Peerless price Buffalo bills #2
16 games 402 yds 8.2 yds per catch


Lloyd had only 15 games with 365 yds 15.9 yds per catch

These are just 2006 stats not since the super bowl era

[RobH4413]

I've read most of the members on this boards posts long enough to form an opinion about someone, and make a character call based on that. So I guess my biased defense of Thatguy stemmed from a few things...

1) He's a respectable poster
2) He was right in this particular case
3) I suck his dick

[wbecker999]

Below are my replies to That Guy

*worst stats for any starting WR in the super bowl era - Bad teams bad quarterbacks

*his ypc is NOT NEAR the best in the league like you said - You misunderstood I said his YPC was among the best receivers in the league
Like Santana Moss and Chad Johnson.
*he's made multiple spats on the sidelines, a bad history in SF, and andre carter (when asked about lloyd's character) basically said "no comment" - you're only response is to cut him some slack, even though he's shown no improvement and refuses to accept blame for anything that goes wrong (and even said he sees absolutely no reason to ever change that kind of attitude).-
Who Knows he may have manned up and took responsibility in the locker room
at a later date. For all we know he's became close friends with them guys by now
*he's never had a 1,000 yard season, and the 49ers definitely didn't think he was worth keeping around at the vet min - Bad system bad quarterback
and I wouldn't run my franchise like S.F these days. I don't classify S.F front office as being smart
*goes mia for games - your response - what's backing that up - my response - look at the stats and box scores, it's pretty obvious, or watch the games. - I think he is a Highly competitive guy and he gets an attitude when he doesn't feel he's getting the ball enough and not being uses correctly

that's another bullshit strawman and an amazing appearance of the "i'm right cause i said so" argument yet again. but that's useless cause there's no proof at all for what your saying or anything that rebuffs those stats. moss and cooley and even el produced just fine, so what?, was lloyd the victim of a vast right wing conspiracy? it makes no sense - he was even on the field for more snaps than el as a WR.
I would say he rubbed the quarterbacks the wrong way and they didn't throw to him . I say he will grow up this year because we will have a good offense

*plenty of good WRs put up stats with crappy QBs (in response to your "well, it's campbell's fault for not being peyton argument). check joe horn, check randy moss, check boldin and fitzgerald, check torry holt with a 3rd string QB, and i'm sure there's tons of other examples. - there is no way to compare they are not in the same situation

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by wbecker999

Below are my replies to That Guy

*worst stats for any starting WR in the super bowl era - Bad teams bad quarterbacks

*his ypc is NOT NEAR the best in the league like you said - You misunderstood I said his YPC was among the best receivers in the league
Like Santana Moss and Chad Johnson.
*he's made multiple spats on the sidelines, a bad history in SF, and andre carter (when asked about lloyd's character) basically said "no comment" - you're only response is to cut him some slack, even though he's shown no improvement and refuses to accept blame for anything that goes wrong (and even said he sees absolutely no reason to ever change that kind of attitude).-
Who Knows he may have manned up and took responsibility in the locker room
at a later date. For all we know he's became close friends with them guys by now
*he's never had a 1,000 yard season, and the 49ers definitely didn't think he was worth keeping around at the vet min - Bad system bad quarterback
and I wouldn't run my franchise like S.F these days. I don't classify S.F front office as being smart
*goes mia for games - your response - what's backing that up - my response - look at the stats and box scores, it's pretty obvious, or watch the games. - I think he is a Highly competitive guy and he gets an attitude when he doesn't feel he's getting the ball enough and not being uses correctly

that's another bullshit strawman and an amazing appearance of the "i'm right cause i said so" argument yet again. but that's useless cause there's no proof at all for what your saying or anything that rebuffs those stats. moss and cooley and even el produced just fine, so what?, was lloyd the victim of a vast right wing conspiracy? it makes no sense - he was even on the field for more snaps than el as a WR.
I would say he rubbed the quarterbacks the wrong way and they didn't throw to him . I say he will grow up this year because we will have a good offense

*plenty of good WRs put up stats with crappy QBs (in response to your "well, it's campbell's fault for not being peyton argument). check joe horn, check randy moss, check boldin and fitzgerald, check torry holt with a 3rd string QB, and i'm sure there's tons of other examples. - there is no way to compare they are not in the same situation

um, worse QBs with worse WRs have put up better stats. he's not just bad, but worst ever type bad. how is his situation different than EVERY other WR that's ever put up more than 500yards in a season with both good and bad QBs? you know, if campbell is as bad as implied, how is he magically become good enough for lloyd to have good numbers?

saying he rubbed the QBs the wrong way so they wouldn't throw to him is really silly. their have been tons of QB/WR spats, and NONE of them has ever resulted in the terrible type of stats he was putting up.

among the best like not in the top 50+ in ypc? that's not the best in my book. devery henderson's 22.3 blows away 15.9 and there are plenty (and i mean plenty) of others up over 17ypc.

"Who Knows he may have manned up and took responsibility in the locker room at a later date."

and that's why in portis's post season interview he kept talking about what a b*tch lloyd was and how he alienated everyone in the lockerroom? sorry, but that's relatively well known, and there's plenty of track record that's directly counter to your sentiments.

all of those responses are just opinions and NONE of them have a shred of actual fact of any kind behind them. saying that there's never been a situation like this one is insane too. lots of other WRs managed to deal with worse QBs and worse situations and still put up better numbers, even as #3 and #4s.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Chill fellas, the Sheriff is reachin' for his billyclub (yes, referring to myself in the third-person qualifies me for douchebagdom).

[Crat92]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Chill fellas, the Sheriff is reachin' for his billyclub (yes, referring to myself in the third-person qualifies me for douchebagdom).

Now that's funny!

[wbecker999]

Hey That Guy- It looks like we both had a little tunnel vision. After reading back through the posts . I will admit the "Insight" comment was to offensive.
Apologies for that.

I started coming to this sight after I heard somebody on Tony Bruno in 2003 or 2004 (anyone know who that was?)promoting this sight.

I use this sight to get some insight since I live in Iowa I don't get all the local info.

I would rather talk about the topics than defend myself from personal attacks
I'm sure you would to.

This message was not because of Robh4413 comments
Hey Rob are you sucking That Guys D**k ?
LOL J/K

Sorry I couldn't hold that one back

[4mrusmc]

Getting back to the thread at hand. I think that there are two people in this world. Those who do, and those who talk about doing. As far as B-loyds production, yeah it was all talk and dodo (not so much). Let's hope he has a better season this year.

[That Guy]

in case it's not clear:
-show me a team with better QBs or whatnot that had a #2 WR put up worse stats
-show me a better "situation" where a #2 WR put up worse stats
-show me how many times a QB's annoyance at a WR has caused worse stats

-tell me how being "highly competitive" compels lloyd to disappear for an entire game because he's pouting. that's not exactly my definition of being competitive.


there's a huge track record with TONS of data about his bad attitude and unwillingness to change said attitude. and the last time the team was together was followed by a portis interview is which he was most definitely (though politely) NOT kind to lloyd and his relationship with the rest of the team.

-so, show me some example from a first hand source that'd lead ANYONE of reasonable to mind to think that's changed dramatically over the last two months.

you literally can't prove the first three points. it's completely impossible. I don't think you'll have much luck convincing people of #4, and being in iowa, i don't think you'll have any access to information we've haven't already digested about #5, not that we've seen anything positive anyways (besides JG saying he's not giving up on him yet).

which means, so far, he's been a COMPLETE bust. maybe that changes in the future, but i personally have a lot of doubts about that. especially since he'll be no better than the #3 next year (since randle el IS actually highly competitive, a team guy, and willing to do whatever's asked of him to 100% of his somewhat limited ability).

[wbecker999]

[QUOTE=That Guy;285758]in case it's not clear:
-show me a team with better QBs or whatnot that had a #2 WR put up worse stats. I think you put too much emphasis on stats. It's a game of inches
he has the athletic ability to be a game breaker .
I'-show me a better "situation" where a #2 WR put up worse stats, I'm not going to search for stats I don't care about stats, he's a game breaker.
-show me how many times a QB's annoyance at a WR has caused worse stats . Bledso & T.O, Brooks & Moss, among others
But the point I want to make here is . Put yourself in the qb's shoes once.
If you couldn't stand a receiver on your team and you have moss , Randell el ,and Cooley to throw to also Who would you look to first? I would go to moss , Randell el or Cooley until he straightens his sh-t out.

-tell me how being "highly competitive" compels Lloyd to disappear for an entire game because he's pouting. that's not exactly my definition of being competitive.

It is though, When you want to win and contribute so bad and you are overly competitive it clouds your judgment.
For example; I watched a story on Mia Hamm she was so competitive growing up if she wasn't winning at something she would quit.Didn't matter if it was a game of checkers.


there's a huge track record with TONS of data about his bad attitude and unwillingness to change said attitude. and the last time the team was together was followed by a portis interview is which he was most definitely (though politely) NOT kind to lloyd and his relationship with the rest of the team.
Again he's a fierce competitor and he thought this offense was under achieving . He probably thinks if the scheme and the quarterback would get him the ball they would be better.
Put yourself in his shoes.
If I were in his shoes with his talent I admit I might have popped off too.
-so, show me some example from a first hand source that'd lead ANYONE of reasonable to mind to think that's changed dramatically over the last two months.

I say it can happen though because if he makes things right it would benefit the whole team.So the team would be smart to forgive and Lloyd would be smart to own up and be a team player.

I don't have that much time on my hands right now.If this thread hasn't dropped of the front page by tomorow night I will supply you with stats and similar situations to back up my opinions.

[skinsfan69]

Lloyd is a bust IMO. Who cares about his highlight catches. He's not consistent enough. The FO simply did not do any homework on this clown. The guy needs a serious attitude adjustment. Granted he has not had a top QB to get him the ball but if if he doesn't improve this year then get him outta here. He has one year in this offense and he will have a full off season with JC. Clean up your attitude, come into training camp in top shape and get down to business. It's time to put up or shut the f--k up.

[wbecker999]

among the best like not in the top 50+ in ypc? that's not the best in my book. devery henderson's 22.3 blows away 15.9 and there are plenty (and i mean plenty) of others up over 17ypc.

Top five wide recievers in the league according to nfl.com

Receiving Yds
1. C. Johnson CIN 1369 YPC 15.7
2. M. Harrison IND 1366 YPC 14.4
3. R. Wayne IND 1310 YPC 15.2
4. R. Williams DET 1310 YPC 15.5
5. D. Driver GB 1295 YPC 14.1

I don't see devery hendersen in the top 5