Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?

[MTK]

His crappy W-L record is all the perspective I need. Norv never won the big games here, his teams constantly underachieved. We'll see what he does with a loaded roster and a ton of pressure. With that roster most any coach should be able to put it on cruise control and get at least 12 wins and a deep playoff run. Anything less will be a major disappointment.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

His crappy W-L record is all the perspective I need. Norv never won the big games here, his teams constantly underachieved. We'll see what he does with a loaded roster and a ton of pressure. With that roster most any coach should be able to put it on cruise control and get at least 12 wins and a deep playoff run. Anything less will be a major disappointment.

It's hard to make the case FOR Norv, but it's also hard for me to root against the guy. I could see that offense putting up a lot of points and certainly Philip Rivers will benefit greatly. A also think the pressure is mitigated somewhat by the very fact that people don't think of him as a great HC. It's just hard for me to root against Norv. I'll leave it there.

[MTK]

What did he do for us in his 7 years here to make you want to continue rooting for him??

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against the guy. I think he's a great offensive coordinator. I just think he's garbage as a head coach.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

What did he do for us in his 7 years here to make you want to continue rooting for him??

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against the guy. I think he's a great offensive coordinator. I just think he's garbage as a head coach.

It's less about rooting for him than it is about not finding joy in his failure. I like watching some people lose, but he's not one of them. He seems like a decent fellow. I thought the way he was fired here was disgraceful. They didn't need to do that. I was a little embarrassd to be a Skins fan when I went to Dallas for the game the next weekend. Just a little.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

What did he do for us in his 7 years here to make you want to continue rooting for him??

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against the guy. I think he's a great offensive coordinator. I just think he's garbage as a head coach.

This position has perplexed me for years. I don't understand why the "Norv is garbage crowd" thinks he was/is a good coodinator. The qualities that make a successful head coach (especially a HC who calls plays) are pretty much identical to the qualities of a playcalling coodinator, correct?

So does Norv have these qualities or not? I doubt he could have them only conditionally. He's either an underrated coach, or an overrated coodinator.

(I tend to feel hes the latter)

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

This position has perplexed me for years. I don't understand why the "Norv is garbage crowd" thinks he was/is a good coodinator. The qualities that make a successful head coach (especially a HC who calls plays) are pretty much identical to the qualities of a playcalling coodinator, correct?

So does Norv have these qualities or not? I doubt he could have them only conditionally. He's either an underrated coach, or an overrated coodinator.

(I tend to feel hes the latter)

I always thought he had a good knack for playcalling. I woud say he was better than anything i saw from Al Saunders last year.

[Beemnseven]

Troy Aikman, whom I despised as a player, but greatly respect now, has nothing but praise for Norv Turner. He credits Norv for shaping him as the player he turned out to be, and thinks very highly of him as a coach/coordinator.

Some may not agree with Aikman on this, but having a Hall of Famer like Aikman on his side can't hurt Norv's case.

The history books aren't through with Norv Turner, let's just say that.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I always thought he had a good knack for playcalling. I woud say he was better than anything i saw from Al Saunders last year.

Maybe he does, but my point would be that he didn't lose that knack as a HC, did he?

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Maybe he does, but my point would be that he didn't lose that knack as a HC, did he?

No, the point that is made is that he was deficient in the areas of team management and motivation. The Westbrooke/Davis fight, a lack of discipline, too nice to the guys. I think you can have a great game plan and not have your team ready to play at the same time.

I will say that I think Gibbs was/(is?) too cautious as a play caller at times, but he makes up for it with meticulous preparation. His practices are like games.

At any rate, it will be interesting to see how many points San Diego scores this season. I think a lot.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Maybe he does, but my point would be that he didn't lose that knack as a HC, did he?

Norv is one of the best OC's in the NFL. No question about that. He knows NFL offense. But he IS NOT a leader of men.

In order for him to be a good HC he is going to need a veteran team with self starters. He is in the perfect situation now in SD. But he could not coach a team like Tenn and get them to 8-8 like Jeff Fischer did.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

This position has perplexed me for years. I don't understand why the "Norv is garbage crowd" thinks he was/is a good coodinator. The qualities that make a successful head coach (especially a HC who calls plays) are pretty much identical to the qualities of a playcalling coodinator, correct?

So does Norv have these qualities or not? I doubt he could have them only conditionally. He's either an underrated coach, or an overrated coodinator.

(I tend to feel hes the latter)

I'm not sure what's so confusing. As a coordinator he has a pretty good track record, but as a head coach his record speaks for itself. There are plenty of coaches in the league that just aren't head coach material, but are brilliant coordinators. I think Norv fits that mold perfectly.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'm not sure what's so confusing. As a coordinator he has a pretty good track record, but as a head coach his record speaks for itself. There are plenty of coaches in the league that just aren't head coach material, but are brilliant coordinators. I think Norv fits that mold perfectly.

Agreed. It's kind of like Monte Kiffin in Tampa. The guy has been a top D coordinator for years, and he knows that's his niche. Norv has been a great offensive play caller and developer of QBs, but he's a poor disciplinarian and no good with the defensive side of the ball. I think Gregg Williams may be the same kind of coach as well. His track record as THE guy is poor, but (aside from '06) his defenses have always been very solid. Other guys who come to mind are Ray Rhodes, Dave Campo, Marty Mornenwheg, Dom Capers... all good coordinators but questionable head coaches.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Agreed. It's kind of like Monte Kiffin in Tampa. The guy has been a top D coordinator for years, and he knows that's his niche. Norv has been a great offensive play caller and developer of QBs, but he's a poor disciplinarian and no good with the defensive side of the ball. I think Gregg Williams may be the same kind of coach as well. His track record as THE guy is poor, but (aside from '06) his defenses have always been very solid. Other guys who come to mind are Ray Rhodes, Dave Campo, Marty Mornenwheg, Dom Capers... all good coordinators but questionable head coaches.

Ok, I just want to know what qualities that these coaches had that allowed them to succeed as coodinators but also made them fail as head coaches. Poor disciplinarian seems to be a common flaw, but if we take this as granted, how do we explain success as an coodinator. It seems that these players would have to be quite disciplined to have success. But if we've already labeled these coaches as ones who lack the ability to enstill the discipline necessary for success, how to explain their relative success as a coodinator?

This is very circular in nature, and I'm a bit surprised that others don't see it as so.

And I'm not picking on GMScud or anyone else in particular. I'm just wondering why the perception of a man as head coach and a coodinator can be so vastly different when the roles are ever so similar. Saying that "Norv Turner isn't a great football coach, so I think he's a bit better suited to be a coordinator" is one thing, but the prevailing wisdom so far is that hes a super duper wonderful coordinator and a HC without a clue. This isn't consistent with logic, and to me at least doesn't make a lick of sense.

How can all the negitive qualities that cause one to dismiss Turner as a head coach be ignored when evaluating him as a coordinator?

[GTripp0012]

I don't think Norv is a good coach. I don't even think he's a good coodinator. But maybe theres no better supporting evidence for the argument that coaching has little correlation with winning and losing than with what is about to happen in SD this year. That roster is loaded, and Norv doesn't even have to find missing pieces. They are all in place already. Norv has little control over the outcome of the Chargers' season this year. He just calls the plays, and its on the offense and defense to execute.

[MTK]

The NFL is a coaches league probably more than any other sports league. Do they get too much credit at times and too much blame at others? Sure. But solid coaching sure will take you a lot further the majority of the time than shoddy coaching will.