Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by DIE-NASTY

why draft a rookie qb this year? We'll have to pay him Stafford type money and he won't have a very good line in front of him. We should address the o-line this year with our first overall pick and probably our second and then draft a qb next year when if and when the rookie cap is instituted. Our line will be more seasoned (sanchez played pretty well all things considered behind a good o-line, stafford got the crap kicked out of him because their line is about as bad as ours) and we wont have to pay some PROSPECT Peyton Manning money. And who knows, if we upgrade our line and we keep JC, maybe he plays much better and we resign him which would negate the need to use a high pick in next year's draft on a QB.
Sorry, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse but it makes me feel better.

I too believe and know OL is the main issue. Our's was not one of the best. But the same arguement for QB can be used for OL or any other position. Why draft at position X, no one stands out at that position or only 1 person does and will be taken prior to our draft spot, which means the others are a gamble as to how they will work out in the NFL.

Picking up the Franchise QB in mid to late rounds is a huge gamble. We are the prime example picking up QB's late or UFA's and try them out only to cut them in preseason. I'm not saying you can't get a good QB, I'm saying your chances of finding the Franchise Payton Manning types are slim. You better off taking on of the top few tier QB's coming out of the draft which have better skill sets to work with.

If this was a year in which only a few teams needed QB's and the possibilities of one of the top tier QB's would keep falling into the 2nd round then I'd say wait. But when you only have 2 or 3 top tier QB's then there is a drop off in talent/skill then I'd say take one this year while we are so high in the draft to be able to pick the one we want vs. settling for second best cause the one all the coach's wanted was taken.

In other words let say the team decides to wait till next year to pick up a Franchise QB. Under Shanahan the team actually does pretty well say 8-8 or 9-7. Our draft spot would most likely be moved down to the middle of the draft say 14-17 range. But we committed to holding out till next yr to pick up a QB so we look at the talent and really only 1 QB is worth picking up under the impression that he would be a Franchise QB and he's expected to go either 1st or 2nd in the 1st round. Are you willing to give up the farm to move up to get the QB or are you going to settle for mediocracy and hope for a diamond in the rough or simply say we'll pick him up a year later?

Any new HC will want to get "his" QB to teach or coach to run his system. Look at each HC we've had....

Marty went out and picked up Sage Rosenfels.
Spurrier picked up Ramsey and Hamden.
Gibbs picked up Campbell and Palmer.
Zorn was an idiot but he did pick up C.Brennan and Daniels.

Shanahan will pick up a QB whome he wants cause picking up any General to run your team simply doesn't always work. Plus Shanahan's offensive scheme needs a QB who is accurate, has excellent timing, and can go through their progressions quickly. Plus Shanahan is known for getting excellent results out of mid to late round OL talent.

So I go back to saying if we need a General to run the team then we might as well get him now with a 3-5 yr plan on getting to the play offs/SB. Let Shanahan build his OL through FA and drafting after the 1st round since he's known to pick up good talent by doing so in the past.
If we are upgrading the OL trying to buy more time and protection for the QB, why can't we up grade the QB spot and pick up someone who can read defenses, get through their progressions faster, who has a faster release, and is more accurate as well. This would help the OL out as well.

[Bigreds77]

DIE-NASTY great post the same people that bashed Vinny for taking skilled players instead of a O Line are now wanting to draft a QB that may never work out.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Bigreds77

DIE-NASTY great post the same people that bashed Vinny for taking skilled players instead of a O Line are now wanting to draft a QB that may never work out.

No.... we want a QB that has potential to work out. We already have drafted a QB that has not worked out in Campbell and Brennan.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

No.... we want a QB that has potential to work out. We already have drafted a QB that has not worked out in Campbell and Brennan.

And part of the reason why that QB hasn't worked is because we just focused on skill position players and had a turd for an offensive line.

I know someone will come and try to rip me a new one because I bash the people that want a QB, but I just don't understand how these people can be so non-chalant (sp?) about the offensive line.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

And part of the reason why that QB hasn't worked is because we just focused on skill position players and had a turd for an offensive line.

I know someone will come and try to rip me a new one because I bash the people that want a QB, but I just don't understand how these people can be so non-chalant (sp?) about the offensive line.

Not going to bash you. Just pointing out you said you want atleast a OL picked up in the 2nd round. We can still do that. I can tell you I was one of those skill position people and was estatic after Thomas, Kelly, and Davis were drafted. I can tell you after this year I have been on the OL, OL, OL, bandwagon. I know I don't sound like it but I'm using reason vs. simply saying "We need OL so they better go get it."

Think about it. Just about every HC that takes over a team is because they were a crappy team prior. Then the HC drafts a QB he thinks will work out best for his system. So lets say Shanahan does the same thing (which is proven to be most likely), then we can trade of some trade value players ie; Moss, Landry, Campbell, get more draft picks for our OL, and get a Vet QB that either M.Shanahan knows and likes or K.Shanahan knows and likes.

But keep in mind, we can't pick up every one we need in one draft, and we are more then 1 player away from getting to the SB. So lets pick up our "Field General" while we have a high draft pick, pick up several OL in this draft and through FA, and see where we can pick up a LB, NT, and FS. Thats not even mentioning a possible RB. Will CP be cleared to play? Do we want to settle with aged players in Betts and Cartwright? will Ganther, Mason, and Alridge be better in the new blocking sheme? or do we look to FA or draft a young buck for the new scheme?

Plus like you being so tired of hearing about Shanahan getting great production out of mid to late round talent, I'm tired of hearing about all the excuses for JC. Yes the OL sucked. But on almost every play I could count 4-7 seconds he had to do something with the ball, which by the way is about the time most QB's have to get rid of the ball, to only witness JC throw it away or behind the reciever. That's not even counting the times he failed to adjust his protection to the correct side or change the play to a more suitable play. Campbell had 4-7 seconds. Go look. Thats why the WCO designed 3, 5, and 7 step drops then added hitches(forward skip steps) so it kinda helps the QB know when to get rid of the ball with out having to sit back there looking over the field saying "one thousand and one, one thousand and two.... oh crap I'm gunna get hit any second." I literally screamed at the tv saying throw the damn ball. But I think part of the problem was Zorn's scheme. It sucked. Just like many DC said when asked about the Skins offense. I mean look a Bingo caller came in and got better production out of the players we had and against better teams.

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Not going to bash you. Just pointing out you said you want atleast a OL picked up in the 2nd round. We can still do that. I can tell you I was one of those skill position people and was estatic after Thomas, Kelly, and Davis were drafted. I can tell you after this year I have been on the OL, OL, OL, bandwagon. I know I don't sound like it but I'm using reason vs. simply saying "We need OL so they better go get it."

Think about it. Just about every HC that takes over a team is because they were a crappy team prior. Then the HC drafts a QB he thinks will work out best for his system. So lets say Shanahan does the same thing (which is proven to be most likely), then we can trade of some trade value players ie; Moss, Landry, Campbell, get more draft picks for our OL, and get a Vet QB that either M.Shanahan knows and likes or K.Shanahan knows and likes.

But keep in mind, we can't pick up every one we need in one draft, and we are more then 1 player away from getting to the SB. So lets pick up our "Field General" while we have a high draft pick, pick up several OL in this draft and through FA, and see where we can pick up a LB, NT, and FS. Thats not even mentioning a possible RB. Will CP be cleared to play? Do we want to settle with aged players in Betts and Cartwright? will Ganther, Mason, and Alridge be better in the new blocking sheme? or do we look to FA or draft a young buck for the new scheme?

Plus like you being so tired of hearing about Shanahan getting great production out of mid to late round talent, I'm tired of hearing about all the excuses for JC. Yes the OL sucked. But on almost every play I could count 4-7 seconds he had to do something with the ball, which by the way is about the time most QB's have to get rid of the ball, to only witness JC throw it away or behind the reciever. That's not even counting the times he failed to adjust his protection to the correct side or change the play to a more suitable play. Campbell had 4-7 seconds. Go look. Thats why the WCO designed 3, 5, and 7 step drops then added hitches(forward skip steps) so it kinda helps the QB know when to get rid of the ball with out having to sit back there looking over the field saying "one thousand and one, one thousand and two.... oh crap I'm gunna get hit any second." I literally screamed at the tv saying throw the damn ball. But I think part of the problem was Zorn's scheme. It sucked. Just like many DC said when asked about the Skins offense. I mean look a Bingo caller came in and got better production out of the players we had and against better teams.

I am not sure which game(s) you were watching. I dont recall Jason having 4-7 seconds to get rid of the ball. No one generally has that long to get rid of the ball. So lets be realistic. Jason was one of the most beat up QB's in the NFL. I dont think anyone argues that nor the fact the Oline was god awful. However, he did finish upper half of the league when the season ended, so if you look at it that way then he could be a far more productive QB if given the average amount of time in the pocket.

Now, for drafting a QB with the #4 pick. I just dont think is maximizing the pick. Especially if we are giving Campbell every opportunity to keep his job. What if Jason goes and lights it up (if the line is better) and we get into the playoffs. What now! You have Campbell who did what everyone expected behind a good Oline and now a #4 pick sitting on the bench. Wasted pick. Now, since we will probably offer JC a 1 year tender, now since he is a FA, we get nothing in return because we are not going to invest big money in him, we aren't going to tag him, and now no way to trade him. This of course is saying he has a good year.

2nd - say we draft a QB, and ignore what we should be doing by drafting the best olineman in the draft, he gets the job and now he is getting the crap beat out of him behind the oline. That is no way for a rookie QB to start a career and become productive.

We draft oline at 4 and in the 2nd. See whats available in the later rounds. Take whats there...RB, CB, LB, whatever. We are going to sign a couple of players in FA anyway.

About trading some of the players.. just dont see it. Who is going to trade for Moss, Portis, Randel El, JC??? NO ONE... 1st off Moss and Randel El can't get open if I am covering them. Portis is a 30 year old RB that no one is going to want. LT just got cut and Portis aint no LT. No one is going to offer a 1st and 3rd for JC, and no one is going to trade for him next year because he will be a FA. So we basically waste another 1st round pick and a 3rd to move up to get him.

I just hope this FO has a clue this offseason. I stand behind what ever they do, QB or no QB.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by Bigreds77

DIE-NASTY great post the same people that bashed Vinny for taking skilled players instead of a O Line are now wanting to draft a QB that may never work out.

and since you kept a spreadsheet please enlighten us

[Defensewins]

Why are we such an impatient group/team that we have to try to add by subtraction? Why can't we keep the good players we have and take 3 years to build through the draft and FA over time? We don't have to trade Santana Moss, LaRon Landry, Chris Cooley etc. just because some are desperate for more draft picks.
If we have learned one thing from the Snyder era is trying to build a winner in one or two whirlwind off seasons does not work for us. We end up regressing.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Why are we such an impatient group/team that we have to try to add by subtraction? Why can't we keep the good players we have and take 3 years to build through the draft and FA over time? We don't have to trade Santana Moss, LaRon Landry, Chris Cooley etc. just because some are desperate for more draft picks.
If we have learned one thing from the Snyder era is trying to build a winner in one or two whirlwind off seasons does not work for us. We end up regressing.

sometimes wiping the slate clean helps, you bring in fresh guys that are handpicked for your system and brought in under the expectation that they will do their best for you because the coaching staff wanted you.. those are a few of the factors

We don't have to trade all of those guys but it's expected that you'll field offers, hardly anyone is off the table

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Why are we such an impatient group/team that we have to try to add by subtraction? Why can't we keep the good players we have and take 3 years to build through the draft and FA over time? We don't have to trade Santana Moss, LaRon Landry, Chris Cooley etc. just because some are desperate for more draft picks.
If we have learned one thing from the Snyder era is trying to build a winner in one or two whirlwind off seasons does not work for us. We end up regressing.

I wouldn't classify looking at the option to trade Moss, Landry, and Cooley as just desperate for more picks.

Moss - Above average, not great hands, average at best route runner, doesn't give full effort 100% of the time, not a #1 caliber receiver, maybe a year or two (at best) left.

Cooley - Pro Bowl caliber TE, Davis better physically than Cooley and productive this year. Two high quality TEs are a nice to have, but with the holes on the OL, if Cooley could be dealt for a 2nd rounder to pick up an OL starter it's a good move.

Landry - physically gifted, questions about his mental approach and work ethic. If a good trade scenario is offered it can't hurt to consider.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I wouldn't classify looking at the option to trade Moss, Landry, and Cooley as just desperate for more picks.

Moss - Above average, not great hands, average at best route runner, doesn't give full effort 100% of the time, not a #1 caliber receiver, maybe a year or two (at best) left.

Cooley - Pro Bowl caliber TE, Davis better physically than Cooley and productive this year. Two high quality TEs are a nice to have, but with the holes on the OL, if Cooley could be dealt for a 2nd rounder to pick up an OL starter it's a good move.

Landry - physically gifted, questions about his mental approach and work ethic. If a good trade scenario is offered it can't hurt to consider.

I think you need to keep Cooley for one more year to see if Davis is the real thing before you think about moving him. I wouldn't gamble on giving away one of our best offensive weapons just because Davis had a couple of good games.

Now with Moss, I don't know how realistic it would be to trade him. But I just feel we could con a team like the Bears into a 4th rounder for him. Some might say, well you would be getting rid of your "#1" WR or getting rid of a veteran WR...but I just feel that he hasn't been much of an impact in the past two season.

Landry is the typical example of a talented player that you could part ways with (for good compensation) because you have a good replacement (Horton...even Doughty) and is a player that has had his issues in here (attitude, poor play, etc., etc.).

Other than these guys, Rogers would be a good option to trade. He could be valuable to another team, and we could use the picks (especially with Dunta Robinson out there available). I also feel that we have young CBs (Barnes, Tryon) that could eventually step up (or we could draft more DBs later on).

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Why are we such an impatient group/team that we have to try to add by subtraction? Why can't we keep the good players we have and take 3 years to build through the draft and FA over time? We don't have to trade Santana Moss, LaRon Landry, Chris Cooley etc. just because some are desperate for more draft picks.
If we have learned one thing from the Snyder era is trying to build a winner in one or two whirlwind off seasons does not work for us. We end up regressing.

All I can say is when I mentioned "Rebuild" mode I was kindly told we are 2 or 3 players away from a SB.

Then the GM Allen came out on tv and said the same thing... almost. Apparently "Rebuild" is a taboo word.

[Redskins_P]

I would take a 3rd and 5th for Campbell any day of the week.

[The Goat]

I want to hear more about the JC to Bills deal. Getting a 3rd rd pick for him would shock me...

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I want to hear more about the JC to Bills deal. Getting a 3rd rd pick for him would shock me...

I don't have much more to tell you right now