Campbell's numbers dont lie

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I think it's also worth noting that in the all important 'wins' category, Cutler and Sanchez have 4, Campbell 3 so for all of the 'bench JC and we'll start winning' crowd, the evidence really isn't there. Bottom line, as it was in the offseason, training camp and today, Campbell gives us the best chance to win each week.

Every observer of this team acknowledges that while JC is not playing at a high level and makes frustrating errors, he is far from the biggest problem on the offense. For example, Jim Zorn calling plays-13.1 PPG, Sherm Lewis calling plays-20.3 PPG. If we can get some consistent protection we may see even more improvement in Campbell's game.

Great point. I knew Sherm's production was a big improvement, but I did not have the numbers.

[Monkeydad]

It should be noted, there are no major, long-term free agent QBs in 2010.

2010 NFL Free Agents

Kyle Orton (will be kept by Denver for sure)
Jason Campbell
Chad Pennington (old and busted)
Tavaris Jackson (far less capable than even Campbell, has failed to keep job several times)
Kellen Clemens (could not beat out Sanchez for starter, barely backup quality)
Charlie Batch (old, not leaving Pittsburgh)
Kyle Boller (no)
David Carr (MAYBE...but has he been beaten to death in his Houston years)
Daunte Culpepper (injury risk)
Rex Grossman (no way)
Joey Harrington (had chances)
Jon Kitna (ancient)
Matt Moore (who?)
Brett Ratliff (who?)
Troy Smith (great in college, good in an emergency, not starter quality)


As for college: Tebow I don't see being an NFL success. Bradford is an injury risk. McCoy looks good, I don't trust a Notre Dame QB, Pike from Cincinnati...undecided...

[Chico23231]

Other vets may become availible after this season as other teams look to rebuild...Hasselbeck, Bulger, D. Anderson, etc. There not long term solutions either but could easily challenge JC at the QB spot.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

I agree that Collins would probably give us a better chance to win now, but honestly, whats the point? The more campbell plays, the better chance we have that he'll improve enough to give him some trade value in the offseason.

[DBUCHANON101]

Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIII
Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIV
Jeff Hostetler, New York Giants - SB XXV
Mark Rypien, Washington Redskins - SB XXVI
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXVII
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXVIII
Steve Young, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIX
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXX
Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers - SB XXXI
John Elway, Denver Broncos - SB XXXII
John Elway, Denver Broncos - SB XXXIII
Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams - SB XXXIV
Trent Dilfer, Baltimore Ravens - SB XXXV
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXVI
Brad Johnson, Tampa Bay Buccaneers - SB XXXVII
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXVIII
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXIX
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers - SB XL
Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts - SB XLI
Eli Manning, New York Giants - SB XLII
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers - SB XLIII

Past SB winning QB's, id say this is a pretty good list. Nothing avg about them. But once here and there you will find a name that had a GREAT Defense that carried the team to the title but like i said for the most part these guys led their team to the "W". And the ones who rode their defense to the title,how often do you see a defense of that caliber? not very often do you see a defense like that of the 85 Bears, 2000 Ravens, or the Bucs of 2002. In these rare cases i believe these defenses actually outscored the opposing team all by themselves in the SB.
In the post you had earlier where you stated if JC had an avg offensive supporting cast around him he could be a SB contending QB with a great defense. Well i think you would be hard pressed to find a pro QB who wouldnt, and thats the point, that you are more likely to win a title with a top QB with a top 10 defense than you are to have the stars align just right and have a great defense that wins the games for you.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by DBUCHANON101

Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIII
Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIV
Jeff Hostetler, New York Giants - SB XXV
Mark Rypien, Washington Redskins - SB XXVI
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXVII
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXVIII
Steve Young, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIX
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXX
Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers - SB XXXI
John Elway, Denver Broncos - SB XXXII
John Elway, Denver Broncos - SB XXXIII
Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams - SB XXXIV
Trent Dilfer, Baltimore Ravens - SB XXXV
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXVI
Brad Johnson, Tampa Bay Buccaneers - SB XXXVII
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXVIII
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXIX
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers - SB XL
Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts - SB XLI
Eli Manning, New York Giants - SB XLII
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers - SB XLIII

Past SB winning QB's, id say this is a pretty good list. Nothing avg about them. But once here and there you will find a name that had a GREAT Defense that carried the team to the title but like i said for the most part these guys led their team to the "W". And the ones who rode their defense to the title,how often do you see a defense of that caliber? not very often do you see a defense like that of the 85 Bears, 2000 Ravens, or the Bucs of 2002. In these rare cases i believe these defenses actually outscored the opposing team all by themselves in the SB.
In the post you had earlier where you stated if JC had an avg offensive supporting cast around him he could be a SB contending QB with a great defense. Well i think you would be hard pressed to find a pro QB who wouldnt, and thats the point, that you are more likely to win a title with a top QB with a top 10 defense than you are to have the stars align just right and have a great defense that wins the games for you.

Campbell is a decent QB and he's the best we have. Does it have to be championship level or trash for you? He's not elite and he's not garbage. Trying to make a strong case either way is pretty foolish.

[DBUCHANON101]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Campbell is a decent QB and he's the best we have. Does it have to be championship level or trash for you? He's not elite and he's not garbage. Trying to make a strong case either way is pretty foolish.

Im sorry, i thought the goal was to win the SB. History has shown that the chances are pretty unlikely you will do that with a 50/50 QB.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by DBUCHANON101

Im sorry, i thought the goal was to win the SB. History has shown that the chances are pretty unlikely you will do that with a 50/50 QB.

Of course that's the goal but by your scale 26 active QB must suck since only 6 active QB are Super Bowl winners. Teams win SB not individuals.

[doughtydoubter]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Teams win SB not individuals.

ah..but the question here is...can the right individual get the team over the hump to win the sb? I have no doubts all 55 men are needed...BUT when you have that one guy that is a true leader, that you truly truly believe can take you to the summit...it pushes you a little more.
This...is what jc lacks

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by DBUCHANON101

Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIII
Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIV
Jeff Hostetler, New York Giants - SB XXV
Mark Rypien, Washington Redskins - SB XXVI
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXVII
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXVIII
Steve Young, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIX
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXX
Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers - SB XXXI
John Elway, Denver Broncos - SB XXXII
John Elway, Denver Broncos - SB XXXIII
Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams - SB XXXIV
Trent Dilfer, Baltimore Ravens - SB XXXV
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXVI
Brad Johnson, Tampa Bay Buccaneers - SB XXXVII
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXVIII
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXIX
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers - SB XL
Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts - SB XLI
Eli Manning, New York Giants - SB XLII
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers - SB XLIII

Past SB winning QB's, id say this is a pretty good list. Nothing avg about them. But once here and there you will find a name that had a GREAT Defense that carried the team to the title but like i said for the most part these guys led their team to the "W". And the ones who rode their defense to the title,how often do you see a defense of that caliber? not very often do you see a defense like that of the 85 Bears, 2000 Ravens, or the Bucs of 2002. In these rare cases i believe these defenses actually outscored the opposing team all by themselves in the SB.
In the post you had earlier where you stated if JC had an avg offensive supporting cast around him he could be a SB contending QB with a great defense. Well i think you would be hard pressed to find a pro QB who wouldnt, and thats the point, that you are more likely to win a title with a top QB with a top 10 defense than you are to have the stars align just right and have a great defense that wins the games for you.

Thing is though, the stars have to align for any super bowl winner these days, mostly because the era of the dominant team died in the late 90's.

The NFL these days is an oligarchy of sorts. You have the teams that get it, and they are concentrated mostly in the AFC, which gives the illusion of parity. Since 2000, the Steelers, Patriots, Colts have pretty much represented the AFC every year, exceptions to where the Raiders broke through in a down year and the Ravens big defensive year. But in the NFC, you've gotten basically a different team every year.

The stars align for someone in the NFC every year. It's been the Giants twice, the Bucs, the Rams, the Panthers, the Eagles, the Seahawks, the Bears, and now the Cardinals. In 1998, the Falcons went. That's half the conference. If there's been a dominant QB among the bunch, it's been Kurt Warner. Having Tony Romo has not helped the Cowboys get anywhere. McNabb's been one of the more successful playoff QBs of all time, and it hasn't mattered much. Jake Delhomme and Kerry Collins were neither great quarterbacks, nor did they have great defenses in those years. Rex Grossman?!

You combine all of the super bowl appearences for the best QBs in the NFC over the last decade: Romo, Brees, McNabb, Favre, Culpepper, Marc Bulger, Warner, Hasselbeck...it's roughly half the time that the NFC is represented by a team with an above average QB, or at least a guy who was as good as 08 Campbell. Chris Chandler, Collins, Johnson, Delhomme, Grossman, and Eli have all been there in subpar years, mostly because they had quality individuals on both sides of the ball.

It's not quarterback play that progresses in the playoffs. Considering that it's not the best quarterbacks that get to the playoffs against the best teams, the only reason the trend seems to hold is because the best teams in the AFC every year also have the best quarterbacks. If you took the QBs away, they would still be the best teams: Steelers, Ravens, Titans, Colts, Patriots. Every year. They'd just be closer to the pack.

[MTK]

Campbell is on pace this type of season:

299 of 452 (66.1%) for 3,324 yards, 18 TDs and 14 INTs. QB rating of 87.9

It's another year of improvement, career highs in completion %, yards, QB rating, and TDs. All with a subpar offensive line.

So is this a guy we look to move on from? I'm on the fence.

[DBUCHANON101]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Campbell is on pace this type of season:

299 of 452 (66.1%) for 3,324 yards, 18 TDs and 14 INTs. QB rating of 87.9

It's another year of improvement, career highs in completion %, yards, QB rating, and TDs. All with a subpar offensive line.

So is this a guy we look to move on from? I'm on the fence.

Yeah but how many guys keep the pace they are on for 16 games? And dont forget that the numbers you got for this sample were from the easy part of our schedule. We have a tough road ahead of us.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by DBUCHANON101

Yeah but how many guys keep the pace they are on for 16 games? And dont forget that the numbers you got for this sample were from the easy part of our schedule. We have a tough road ahead of us.

Well Denver had the #3 ranked D coming in to yesterday and he had one of his better games statistically, and outside of the KC game he's been pretty consistent.

If the protection is there for him, who knows?

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Campbell is on pace this type of season:

299 of 452 (66.1%) for 3,324 yards, 18 TDs and 14 INTs. QB rating of 87.9

It's another year of improvement, career highs in completion %, yards, QB rating, and TDs. All with a subpar offensive line.

So is this a guy we look to move on from? I'm on the fence.

he's missed wide open receivers for TD passes while having ample protection from his o-line far too many times to continue to stick with. He's improved in some areas, but he continues to fumble too much, make poor decisions, and hold on to the ball too long. You put Patrick Ramsey behind a pro-bowl offensive line and he'd be a top 5 quarterback. I'm not kidding. Just about ANY QB can be pro-bowl caliber if his line is good, but that doesn't mean he's a great QB... just the beneficiay of 5 amazing guys protecting his butt. What we have, even with injuries, is a slightly below average offensive line that was average in the second half of last year and top5 in the first half of last year. Campbell hasnt gotten it done consistently no matter how good the o-line in front of him was playing.

Great quarterbacks can play well behind sub-par offensive lines. Look at what payton manning did in 2008 and what rothlesberger is doing now, as just two examples. You can make all the excuses you want for Campbell, but great quarterbacks make the players around them better, and Campbell hasnt done that and never will. Last year, i'd never heard of half the guys who are catching balls from manning now, but they all looked GREAT tonight. They'd look like doo-doo if Campbell was throwing to them.

Campbell isnt the only problem on our offense, but he's probably the biggest. He could go to the pro-bowl behind a great O-line, but it wouldnt be because he's a game winner. he's a game manager. Thats all he's ever been and that's all he'll ever be.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

he's missed wide open receivers for TD passes while having ample protection from his o-line far too many times to continue to stick with. He's improved in some areas, but he continues to fumble too much, make poor decisions, and hold on to the ball too long. You put Patrick Ramsey behind a pro-bowl offensive line and he'd be a top 5 quarterback. I'm not kidding. Just about ANY QB can be pro-bowl caliber if his line is good, but that doesn't mean he's a great QB... just the beneficiay of 5 amazing guys protecting his butt. What we have, even with injuries, is a slightly below average offensive line that was average in the second half of last year and top5 in the first half of last year. Campbell hasnt gotten it done consistently no matter how good the o-line in front of him was playing.

Great quarterbacks can play well behind sub-par offensive lines. Look at what payton manning did in 2008 and what rothlesberger is doing now, as just two examples. You can make all the excuses you want for Campbell, but great quarterbacks make the players around them better, and Campbell hasnt done that and never will. Last year, i'd never heard of half the guys who are catching balls from manning now, but they all looked GREAT tonight. They'd look like doo-doo if Campbell was throwing to them.

Campbell isnt the only problem on our offense, but he's probably the biggest. He could go to the pro-bowl behind a great O-line, but it wouldnt be because he's a game winner. he's a game manager. Thats all he's ever been and that's all he'll ever be.

As documented earlier in this thread, Zorn calling plays 13.1 PPG, Lewis calling plays 20.3 PPG. Same QB but the offense improves by over a TD per game and he's the biggest problem? The OL isn't a bigger problem? Leading the league in drops isn't a bigger problem? JC is far, very far, from perfect but he's also far from our biggest offensive problem.