Time to Build an Offensive Line

[WaldSkins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I have a Velheer analysis that I am going to be putting together when I can rent game tape of both Grand Valley-Hillsdale games from this year for "coursework", but I'll just say that I'm not all that impressed with watching him live. He's a dominant lineman in division 2, but he looked very slow against some of the better D-II pass rushers (GVSU's line).

Considering that the best pass rushers at this level make up the bottom of the barrel at the professional level, I think his best chance to make it might be on the inside. Not all that dissimilar from Chad Rinehart. I don't really have a good concept of his build or projection as an interior lineman though. So maybe that's not realistic.

I read that he is working his way up draft boards with his athleticism and he should rise even higher after a strong combine.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by WaldSkins

I read that he is working his way up draft boards with his athleticism and he should rise even higher after a strong combine.

Without the benefit of replay, I'd say you should take the word of the scouting report off of film over whatever I saw, in general. He was one of 11 guys, the only one I cared to scout for sure, but I was still watching a game with a rooting interest. But looking slow (unquantifiable) is probably a lot different than being athletic (quantifiable).

Don't know how they are projecting players to have a strong combine at this point. Seems to defeat the purpose of a combine.

I was only at one of the two match-ups between the schools. The other was a GVSU road game (and first regular season loss in five years). The game I was at wasn't really close, so perhaps I caught Velheer (and the rest of his team) on a bad day.

[CultBrennan59]

Originally Posted by WaldSkins

2nd Round-Charles Brown-USC-OT
3rd Round-Jared Velheer-Hillsdale-OT/OG(Trade to get a pick)
4th Round-Matt Tennant-BC-C/OG

Resign Levi Jones

Our 2010 offensive line
LT Charles Brown/Jared Velheer
LG Dockery
C Tennant
RG Rinehart/Montgomery
RT Velheer/Levi Jones

you and I pretty much have the same idea for OL and the draft, except I have another rookie starting at RG instead of Rinehart.

[WaldSkins]

Originally Posted by CultBrennan59

you and I pretty much have the same idea for OL and the draft, except I have another rookie starting at RG instead of Rinehart.

I also have that guy from the broncos that we signed in the mix but i was too lazy to look up his name.
Kory Lightstringer??

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by WaldSkins

I also have that guy from the broncos that we signed in the mix but i was too lazy to look up his name.
Kory Lightstringer??

Just call him Kory L. Though for the record his name is Kory Lichtensteiger.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I think Rodger Saffold from Indiana might be a good 4th-5th round choice

Been hearing some talk of Selvish Capers in the 2nd round for the Skins this week. Not sure what to make of that.

Yeah not sure about that one either. A guy that would be more suited towards starting soon would be better, even if it's at RT. I hear he's more of a LT but not quite ready to start.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Just as I suspected (by reading these posts), just about every FA offensive lineman that we could get (UFAs) are over the age of 30. While a number of them could play very well and would be huge upgrades over our current players, I think by filling all of the holes in the line with 30+ year old lineman, you're at risk of having injured starters.

I just feel that we've been gambling on patching up the line with older players for a while now. And the downside of this year is that we aren't able to pick up a marquee lineman in his mid to late 20s (i.e. Marcus McNeill) because RFA rules due to the uncapped season, without giving up draft picks.

It seems like everyone wants to get young at every position except the line (see the Jamal Lewis and Chester Taylor threads).

In the QB vs OT at #4 argument, I think this is a strong point of yours. Drafting Bradford/Clausen would make it more difficult to get young on the OL. We can draft a QB at #4 and still put together a decent line but it would not be as young as it would if we took Okung.

[sportscurmudgeon]

30gut:

Heyer and Williams were part of an offensive line that was overmatched in just about every game. Heyer is marginal against a pass rush and is less than satisfactory as a run blocker. Did you notice how often the Skins "ran left" on short yardage situations? I'm sure opposing defensive coordinators did. The reason they "ran left" is that Heyer as the RT is not any good at run blocking. He is an emergency player not a starter.

Williams' participation in games at right guard did not show any measured improvement in pass blocking by the OL and if he ever led a big run play downfield, I must have been distracted because I did not see it. I also never saw him "pancake" any DL in front of him. Sorry, this guy has a LOT of improving to do before he qualifies as a starter on a contending team. How would I describe his play at RG? Marginal - - and I would wager that if the Redskins cut him today, his agent's telephone would not be ringing off the hook with offers from 20 other teams in the NFL. If he were really a "bright spot" on the OL, and he were released, he would be contacted by a dozen other teams within the hour...

Rinehart has been here for two seasons. He has made it to the field on a Sunday how many times? Three? Four? Five at the most. Remember, he did not play at all in his rookie season... He was hurt this year and missed 6 games due to injury but that leaves 26 games in his career and he only found the field 3-5 times. Evidently, the coaches figured that he was lacking in skills most of the time that they put together their game plans.

If Williams and Rinehart are "2 bright spots" on the Skins' OL, how come they were not in games very often? And when they were in games, how come the Skins didn't dominate people?

The fact that Williams was an UDFA playing out of position does not mean he is a "bright spot" on the OL. The fact that he was not mentioned for any negatives does not mean he is a "bright spot" on the OL. When you out of the lineup because the coaches think there are better players than you are, you will never be mentioned for any "negatives"; that is not a "positive".

I read your original post carefully. I too have been saying that it will be next to impossible to reconstruct the entire OL in a single season. However, I simply cannot subscribe to the notion that the "OL began playing well once the rotating door stopped." The OL did not play well for most of the season; once Samuels and Thomas were hurt, it played poorly to marginally for the rest of the season. That poor-to-marginal play is a major reason the record was 4-12.

Just when did the OL start to play well in 2009?

Game 16 the Skins lost to the Chargers' JV squad.

Game 15 the Skins lost to the Cowboys in a shutout. Guess the OL didn't have a lot of "bright spots" that day.

Game 14 the Skins lost to a mediocre Giants' team by almost 5 TDs.

Game 13 the Skins beat the Oakland Raiders by 3 TDs. If this is when the OL line play began to be a positive, it sure seems to have evaporated quickly...

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

Yeah not sure about that one either. A guy that would be more suited towards starting soon would be better, even if it's at RT. I hear he's more of a LT but not quite ready to start.

In that case we would probably be going for the tackle overkill scenario (not that it's a bad thing). Capers would actually be a very good fit at RT in a ZBS considering he played a blindside RT at WVU, thats a rare type of RT. However if you find a way to get Okung and Charles Brown then you have the best tackle pair since Jansen/Samuels in their prime.

The scenario though that I keep on hearing these days is Okung/Jhavid Best (RB Cal). Which sounds logical. Personally I don't know what I want at this point. People around here have provided compelling arguments for keeping JC around past 2010 and personally it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. I mean he seems at this point to be just as good as Matt Schuab when he came to the Texans but sometimes I wonder if I'm just overreaching.

Part of me would love to see Campbell succeed while the other voice in my head tells me that JC will only take us so far. Some other popular scenarios seem to be as follows.

1. Bradford or Clausen/ Best Available Tackle, hopefully Brown
2. Okung/ Brandon Spikes
3. Okung/ Jhavid Best
4. Okung/Brown or best available tackle
5. Okung/ Maurkice Pouncey (C/G Florida)
6. Okung/ Colt McCoy

There are a lot of options out there. Hopefully in the end we come away with two players that will help our franchise out for a long time.

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

If Williams and Rinehart are "2 bright spots" on the Skins' OL, how come they were not in games very often? And when they were in games, how come the Skins didn't dominate people?

Williams was a rookie thats still developing and for all intents and purposes it was said that he was one of the more promising guys we had based on his performance in practice. One or two of our current lineman from last year are probably going to step up and play better then last year thanks to the new system.

The Falcons had that with their entire line when Mularky came in though I wouldn't bank on such a promising turnaround for our own line. And personally I don't know about Rineharts ability to function in a ZBS but we'll either find out in camp or hopefully find a way to bring in Chris Kuper. It's very likely though that Ben Hamilton will be here on the start of free agency.

I'd also like to encourage people not to sleep on Rabach. Rabach was pretty good earlier in his career in power blocking schemes and now he's about to be part of an offense tailored to his strengths.

Comment: Rabach has been a mainstay in the middle of the Redskins' offensive line since coming over from Baltimore in 2005. He has excellent quickness and balance. He gains leverage early in the play and utilizes active hands, technique and effort to defeat larger defenders. He is an intelligent player who makes all the line calls and understands angles as well as reacting quickly to changing fronts and pressure packages. He is effective on combination blocks to scoop up to the second level. He is solid in space to lock on and wall off moving targets. He can slide and recover in the box when pass protecting but lacks great size and power verse larger bull rushers. Rabach is a tough, hardnosed football player who has been one of the most consistent performers for the Redskins' offensive line.

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I think Rodger Saffold from Indiana might be a good 4th-5th round choice

I think we would be very lucky to have him fall that far. It feels like to be that he could easily be one of those guys that slips into the second round but last no later then the early third. So far he's been impressive this offseason with a strong performance at the East-West All Star Game.

[Dirtbag59]

Actually forget what I said about Rinehart. I mean lets remember this guy did play LT in college so he has some agility. And from what I've hear he wasn't really to bad when he played last year. His scouting report from his rookie year also suggest he could be successful in a ZBS. Rinehart could easily become our next Dockery. A third round pick that we thought to be a lost cause that turns around to be one of our better players.

Has above-average initial quickness for a guard and can get into position when technique is sound. Plays with a mean streak, delivers a violent punch and can jar defenders at the point of contact. Works from the snap until the whistle and can sustain blocks once locked on. Has adequate lower body strength and flashes the ability to drive defenders. Takes sound angles to downfield blocks and can get into position at the second level. (this is important in a ZBS) Keeps head up and generally does a good job of sliding off combo blocks to pick up linebackers (You want to pick up linebackers if you want to break off big runs). Shows good awareness in pass protection and can adjust to line stunts and blitzes. Though bends at the waist rather than the knees, has good size and can hold ground against bull rushers. Lined up at tackle in college and is somewhat versatile. While missed three games after undergoing an appendectomy in 2004 started the last 39 games of his collegiate career and is durable.

Right now I see the line shaping up next year as something like this.

LT - Rookie/Free Agent
LG - Dockery - Ben Hamilton
C - Rabach - Edwin Williams
RG - Rinehart - Kory L. (Chris Kuper or Maurice Pouncey would automatically become the starter if acquired)
RT - Rookie or Free Agent/Levi Jones

At this point though theres just to many variables and scenarios to make an accurate prediction. For the most part though I like the way our interior line is shaping up, even without a guy like Pouncey or Kuper. It's the two tackle spots that need a lot of work. One things for sure though. We won't have guys like Big Mike or Will Robinson starting for us.

By the way when do we get Armstrong back?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

The scenario though that I keep on hearing these days is Okung/Jhavid Best (RB Cal).

Where have you heard that? Best would be an awesome pick. Though I could see the Skins taking a chance of Coker in the 4th-5th round.

[tryfuhl]

Love Best.. wouldn't mind trying Coker or Blount depending what we're aiming for in that dept

I'd also venture to say that Rine and crew didn't necessarily perform poorly, but there seemed to be gross mismanagement making decisions on things.

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Where have you heard that? Best would be an awesome pick. Though I could see the Skins taking a chance of Coker in the 4th-5th round.

Crap I thought I replied to this. In fact now that I think about it, this was the last thread I remember reading before the meltdown.

Anyway to sum up I've seen both WalterDraft and Mel Kiper refer to Best as a possible 2nd round pick for the Redskins. On top of that I've seen what feels like numerous people suggesting the Okung/Best scenario a few times on RI and ES.

So it's by no means official, even by mock draft standards, but it sounds plausible, at least to me, and apparently a few others.

[PHazard]

Why use a 2nd round pick on Jahvid Best? We already have a player with his skill set in Anthony Aldridge. RB coach just needs to coach him up more in holding the ball higher and tighter which i know he can do. Shanahan loves pounding the rock as much as he can but Best isnt an every down back. Why waste a pick as high as 2nd on a committee runner? No Thanx, grab more Olineman help Brown, Ducassee, Campbell, etc

[NYCskinfan82]

Originally Posted by PHazard

Why use a 2nd round pick on Jahvid Best? We already have a player with his skill set in Anthony Aldridge. RB coach just needs to coach him up more in holding the ball higher and tighter which i know he can do. Shanahan loves pounding the rock as much as he can but Best isnt an every down back. Why waste a pick as high as 2nd on a committee runner? No Thanx, grab more Olineman help Brown, Ducassee, Campbell, etc

Agree 110%