KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel

Regardless of mental state, Belcher is certainly not a victim. Lets be clear.

Chiefs, family and team has handled this about as well as anyone could have. Its a tough, sad situation for all.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel

Quoted for post strength.

[RedskinRat]

And we're back to reading comprehension......

I stated "it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that an aggressive athlete that has had multiple injuries to this part of the brain may be more susceptible to rage." but thanks for the convenient partial quote.

If you rage you lose the ability to control, you're not about to recognize that.

One of the most common effects of frontal damage can be a dramatic change in social behavior. A person's personality can undergo significant changes after an injury to the frontal lobes, especially when both lobes are involved. There are some differences in the left versus right frontal lobes in this area. Left frontal damage usually manifests as pseudodepression and right frontal damage as pseudopsychopathic (Blumer and Benson, 1975).

There's ton of research out there which I'm not filling the forum with, Google it yourself.

Proving your point? No, I wasn't but if you choose to use that tired old rhetorical trick, feel free.

First you said the person needs to recognize they're raging, then you're saying "Society is to blame"? It's purely on the poor impulse control of the person, not society.

Should Bi-polar/schizophrenics seek out treatment? I doubt most are capable without the intervention/help of others.

This conversation isn't going anywhere productive. I'm done. I feel sorry for everyone concerned including the shooter.

OMFG, it's NOT ****ing *EVIL*!

No such thing!

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

And we're back to reading comprehension......

I stated "it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that an aggressive athlete that has had multiple injuries to this part of the brain may be more susceptible to rage." but thanks for the convenient partial quote.

do you not see what you said? youre suggesting something without any evidence.

If you rage you lose the ability to control, you're not about to recognize that.

I agree. But my point was that Belcher hasnt been in a rage without control his entire life. By all reports, Belchers problems with his girlfriend were ongoing and, at minimum, he'd talked to players and coaches about his problems. He could have taken actions to prevent himself from being in situations where he could get in a rage. he didnt. He's 100% responsible for his actions.

One of the most common effects of frontal damage can be a dramatic change in social behavior. A person's personality can undergo significant changes after an injury to the frontal lobes, especially when both lobes are involved. There are some differences in the left versus right frontal lobes in this area. Left frontal damage usually manifests as pseudodepression and right frontal damage as pseudopsychopathic (Blumer and Benson, 1975).

There's ton of research out there which I'm not filling the forum with, Google it yourself.

whats your point in providing that information? I never questioned that damage to any particular part of the brain could affect a persons thinking abilitiy. All i did was state there was no evidence that this was the case with Belcher. Youre arguing points you dont need to argue and thereby implying i hold beliefs that i dont.

Proving your point? No, I wasn't but if you choose to use that tired old rhetorical trick, feel free.

First you said the person needs to recognize they're raging, then you're saying "Society is to blame"? It's purely on the poor impulse control of the person, not society.

You completely miss my point. Because society is so tolerant of unacceptable behavior, becuase society make excuses for peoples behavior, because society so liberal in assigning mental illnesses to people to explain bad behavior, people dont feel the need to control their behavior. People reason, "yeah people say i have an anger problem, but its not my fault. Chemicals are unbalanced in my brain." or "Im the way i am because my dad beat me when i was a kid." People make excuses for their behavior, and so they dont get the help they need or work as hard as they should to make changes.

To take it to the extreme in the other direction, if justice were swift and harsh for minor crimes, people would get in line. For example, lets say the law says that if youre driving under the influence, and you get caught, the police will immediately execute you. How many people would drink and drive? Not many. Im not suggesting we have laws like that, but just making the point that people's behavior is influenced by what they know society will tolerate.

Should Bi-polar/schizophrenics seek out treatment? I doubt most are capable without the intervention/help of others.

True schizophrenia is extremely, extremely rare. the vast majority of people identified as schizophrenic are faking and/or mis-diagnosed. (on a side note, if you havent seen it, watch a movie called Take Shelter, which is about the disease. Michael Shannon should have won an oscar for his performance. )

There are several types of bi-polar disorder and it cant really be diagnosed until someone is in their late 30s. Psycholigists used to diagnose people much younger, but found that they ended up medicating people that didnt need it. The problem with bipolar disorder, as you alluded to, is the persons dont beleive their bipolar. Those around them have to identify the problem and basically force them to get help. Finding the right cocktail of medicines for an indivdual person takes years. I know because i'm married to someone with the disorder. I also know that there is no sense trying to reason with someone when they are in an "episode" as their brain is in a "fight or flight" mode. But bipolar people are generally non-violent (the wrong medication and/or alcohol can change that though). There is no evidence Belcher suffered from any sort of real mental disorder.

Like you, i think i'm done arguing this particular topic. As someone else mentioned, we're not going to change eachothers opinions, and, on the off chance that youre one of the small percentage of the population with an actual rage-inducing mental disorder, i dont want to piss you off

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

...

People "snap" because society tolerates that behavior and makes excuses for it. If it didnt, i think you would find alot less people would "snap."

as you said, please provide evidence to support this. We don't know near enough about the limits of the brain capacities to say what makes someone snap. The whole point of saying someone snapped means they went past a point where there mental capacity to respond rationally was there. Explain please how societal pressure at that moment would make a hill of beans difference. The answer is in that moment it doesn't. Geez. Don't make me snap!

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Because to them he was a friend, a teammate, a family member...someone who mattered to them. Ultimately what he did in the end defines him but to the people who knew him there's no switch to forget all the stuff they loved.

To you, someone who didn't know him, its easy to just define him as a killer because that's all you know of him.

I include the teammates when i say people he traumatized. I feel horrible for them and the fact that they had to digest all of this and play that day. If a friend of mine or my brother killed my sister in law in front of my mother i do not think i could just go to work the next day. However i would still have to face the fact that my brother was a cold blooded killer and i probably would not be building a monument of sorts in his honor.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Very well said.

I'm sick of these mindless babbling morons that talk about him being a coward, a killer, etc., etc. all to win an argument on the internet (you should see the comments section on ESPN.com, ridiculous).

This whole situation is a tragedy for everyone involved. Part of that tragedy is whatever went wrong in the mind of Belcher that drove him to commit such terrible act.

It's just sad situation all around.

It is sad that Belcher did this in every aspect including Belcher as a person. But before you call anyone a moron for calling him a killer - which he is by the way. Ask yourself one question. What if it was your friend, daughter , or sister? What if that was your niece or granddaughter he orphaned. Because they were those things to other people. Would you than say - oh he was a good person who made one horrible mistake? No you would think of him only as a coward and a killer. Im putting myself and my thoughts in the shoes and minds of the true victims here.
Edit: i can only imagine what some people are saying. I have never walked in Belchers shoes and for all i know he was completely out of his head mentally to do what he did. So was Rae Carruth im sure. Somewhere Belchers soul is realizing what he did and he must live with it for all of eternity. That is what i believe. Im sure the guy was slightly (obviously an understatement) unstable . However he was stable enough to drive himself to the stadium and thank his coach and gm for everything they did for him so it sounds like he was pretty aware of his actions. The tribute in his locker was in horrible taste and the true victims here are the friends and family of the girlfriend and daughter.

[punch it in]

Im sorry for the rants here but im confused about something. What makes Belcher different than any other person who has ever killed an innocent person? My brothers best friend and wife were gunned down by a maniac killer after the man slit his granddaughters throat in front of his daughter. Believe when i tell you that the fact the guy was a psychopath means nothing to my brother or us or the family members. For the absolute life of me i cannot comprehend that the Chiefs hung his jersey in his locker and paid tribute to him. Columbine was a sad situation, but has anyone ever thought "gee its a shame about that boy and what he must have been going through?" What exactly makes Belchers situation different than anyother cold blooded killer? Imo one life is as valuable as one million lives.

[Gary84Clark]

squawk should be spelled sqwawk right?

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by Gary84Clark

squawk should be spelled sqwawk right?

No its squawk and im very passionate about this particular thread because i have been affected personally by a murderer. So again im sorry for my rants but i just dont get the fact that their seems to be a gray area here. The man killed - he is a killer, and other than - "this scumbag took a life and hurt alot of people (including his teammates" - imo there is nothing else to say about it! It is no different than any other murder!
Im done.

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by punch it in

No its squawk and im very passionate about this particular thread because i have been affected personally by a murderer. So again im sorry for my rants but i just dont get the fact that their seems to be a gray area here. The man killed - he is a killer, and other than - "this scumbag took a life and hurt alot of people (including his teammates" - imo there is nothing else to say about it! It is no different than any other murder!
Im done.

I think that you and everyone involved being angry about the personal experiences that you described is natural and a given but by you grouping senseless or unthinkable killings together trivializes your own experiences with it - because I think that each person needs to take their own situation as uniquely their own - that way you can honor it. I don't think there's a gray area with belchers act, but it is unique to those affected by it. Saying one murder is like any other murder dishonors anyone affected that ever had to experience something like this.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

I think that you and everyone involved being angry about the personal experiences that you described is natural and a given but by you grouping senseless or unthinkable killings together trivializes your own experiences with it - because I think that each person needs to take their own situation as uniquely their own - that way you can honor it. I don't think there's a gray area with belchers act, but it is unique to those affected by it. Saying one murder is like any other murder dishonors anyone affected that ever had to experience something like this.

I meant the act of murder - is the same. Of course if my brother was murdered trying to buy drugs, it is different than if my brother was shot senselessly while playing with his daughter at a playground. In the first example he was somewhere he shouldnt have been, and the second is strait up tragic. I hear you. The guy that pulled the trigger in each example is just as wrong - taking a life is taking a life. That is all i meant.

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by punch it in

I meant the act of murder - is the same. Of course if my brother was murdered trying to buy drugs, it is different than if my brother was shot senselessly while playing with his daughter at a playground. In the first example he was somewhere he shouldnt have been, and the second is strait up tragic. I hear you. The guy that pulled the trigger in each example is just as wrong - taking a life is taking a life. That is all i meant.

What I'm trying to say is - what the friends and family members of jovan belcher say or do in response to what he did is in no way related to what you or your friends and family experienced. If they speak kindly about javon belcher or remember him in a different light- this is in no way related to the psychopath that you described in your own experiences. They aren't speaking about or for all killers. They are just remembering someone they knew.

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

What I'm trying to say is - what the friends and family members of jovan belcher say or do in response to what he did is in no way related to what you or your friends and family experienced. If they speak kindly about javon belcher or remember him in a different light- this is in no way related to the psychopath that you described in your own experiences. They aren't speaking about or for all killers. They are just remembering someone they knew.

I agree.

Belcher is a killer in technical sense of the word, but like I said way earlier in this thread, rational people don't just go off and shoot people. Belcher obviously had issues of some sort.

Before he was a "killer" he was someone's son, a little girl's father, a teammate and a friend. There's nothing wrong with people remembering him as that and that only. Only WE know Belcher as a cold-blooded killer.

While his acts were detestable, because he took an innocent soul from this world, that doesn't mean he was a horrible man or father. From all accounts he was an otherwise decent (that doesn't mean he didn't F up) guy.

Sometimes otherwise normal people do horrible things. The only person who may have known what was wrong is dead and the only person who REALLY knew what was going on is also dead.

I hope everyone involved eventually finds peace from such a horrible incident.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

What I'm trying to say is - what the friends and family members of jovan belcher say or do in response to what he did is in no way related to what you or your friends and family experienced. If they speak kindly about javon belcher or remember him in a different light- this is in no way related to the psychopath that you described in your own experiences. They aren't speaking about or for all killers. They are just remembering someone they knew.

I clearly said that it must be hard for all of them to do that. I do not ever want to get a phone call that a friend or familymember of mine has done something like this. Also in no way am i insinuating that you just forget about how he was a good person at one point or throw away the memories you have of the good times. I can tell you that - and i believe i said this - that if it were my brother i would in no way be making a tribute to him - ala the shirt hanging in the locker. There is a big difference between a tribute and talking about the person you once knew as a good person before he committed such a terrible act. That is natural and understood. There would be no easy way to ever say " my brother is a murderer" or live with that fact. But i would have to do so.
Edit: you are rite - what i went through is different - we were the victims of a senseless act - i have much in common with the girlfriends friends and family. We both lost a beloved friend to a senseless act. If it were you i find it hard to believe you would be so understanding about the "renemberance and "honoring" of the person that took your friends life.