Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 81forHOF

No, it doesn't. We got Rocky McIntosh in return.

You guys are explaining what it took to move up, I'm explaining what we paid for McIntosh.

If we would have picked a player at #53 we would have paid a 2nd round pick for that player! Nothing in this world is for free.

We owned 3 less draft picks after we selected RM than we did before we selected him. It is that simple.

Goofball, Rocky McIntosh IS our 2nd round pick.

We sacrificed next year's 2nd rounder and this year's 6th rounder to GET INTO POSITION to get him. That was the price we paid.

[SKINSnCANES]

Originally Posted by 81forHOF

Yes, we did.

The fact of the matter is that before we selected Rocky we had 2 - 2nd round picks and a 6th round pick. After we selected him we had none of those picks, therefore, logic dictates that that is the price we paid for him.

By your reasoning, if we waited and selected him with the 53rd pick than we would have got him for free. No, we would have paid a 2nd round pick for him.

your logic is stupid. "after we selected him we had none of those picks"

well no shit...but we have him now. Thats how it works, after you pick a player in the draft, you no longer have that pick. We gave up ONE second round pick to get him, and its a 2nd for next year which is the equivalent to a third this year.

[EXoffender]

Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES

your logic is stupid. "after we selected him we had none of those picks"

well no shit...but we have him now. Thats how it works, after you pick a player in the draft, you no longer have that pick. We gave up ONE second round pick to get him, and its a 2nd for next year which is the equivalent to a third this year.

There, there 'Canes.

[SKINSnCANES]

Originally Posted by EXoffender

There, there 'Canes.

heh, sorry. Im still pissed we didnt make a move for Harris. I would have been happy if we took him at 53 orignally because I thought Rocky would be gone by that pick.

[kingerock]

I don't see what the fuss is about with trading away the 2 seconds and a 6th. We talk all offseason how we can't afford to sign our picks, so when we package them to move up and get our 2 or 3 guys, then it's a bad move?

I think if you're gonna build through free agency, which we do, then you have to trade your picks away to stay out of horrible cap trouble.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by kingerock

I don't see what the fuss is about with trading away the 2 seconds and a 6th. We talk all offseason how we can't afford to sign our picks, so when we package them to move up and get our 2 or 3 guys, then it's a bad move?

I think if you're gonna build through free agency, which we do, then you have to trade your picks away to stay out of horrible cap trouble.

the problem i had with the trade is that better talent was available at 35 than what we took and impact players were still there at 53 (at CB, LB, OG, S).

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by That Guy

the problem i had with the trade is that better talent was available at 35 than what we took and impact players were still there at 53 (at CB, LB, OG, S).

I strongly disagree with the notion that you can go into a draft and be really flexible with the guys you draft. You can't go in there and be like oh this guy will work, and if we don't get him, this other guy will work. No.

The whole reason you scout players and do your research is to uncover what you think are the real gems. Then when you think you've found one, you stick to your convictions and you go get him.

I think Gibbs and Williams liked McIntosh for a reason. Williams needs flexibility, he needs intelligence, he needs blitz capability, he needs speed to cover the tougher TEs, but most of all he needed a weakside LB. We didn't need Justice as a backup OL, or a backup Safety with our 2nd round pick. That wouldn't make any sense.

When teams say they're going to pick "best available player", that means who THEY think is the best available. Not the conventional wisdom best player available. You do your own scouting, your own research, and draw your own conclusions.

And I think Gibbs and Williams are better at drawing conclusions about players than just about anybody else out there.

[That Guy]

how you get good teams is by covering your bases in FA and drafting the best talent you can use. not overpaying for one player when guys that can also be better quality starters for you are also available. we still need DB and OL depth, those needs didn't magically disappear because we took an OLB.

jon alston also fits your list of needs of being smart and fast.

in order to maximize talent, you have to have more than one player you can live with.

you think the eagles thought they'd get bunkley or justice without an expensive trade? no, but they got both anyways, which can be solid starters for them for 10 years.

trying to jusitify our pick post-draft doesn't have to include bashing the maximizing of talent as wrong, even if the skins choose not to do it.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by That Guy

how you get good teams is by covering your bases in FA and drafting the best talent you can use. not overpaying for one player when guys that can also be better quality starters for you are also available. we still need DB and OL depth, those needs didn't magically disappear because we took an OLB.

jon alston also fits your list of needs of being smart and fast.

in order to maximize talent, you have to have more than one player you can live with.

you think the eagles thought they'd get bunkley or justice without an expensive trade? no, but they got both anyways, which can be solid starters for them for 10 years.

trying to jusitify our pick post-draft doesn't have to include bashing the maximizing of talent as wrong, even if the skins choose not to do it.

"Maximizing talent" is a useless strategy if you determine that a certain player's talents aren't a good fit for the way you play football. In today's NFL when players often leave a team after 3 or 4 years, the player you pick needs to fit into your system quickly. They need to be teachable first and foremost. Their skill sets need to fit your schemes. You can't do something ridiculous like drafting Jimmy Williams, playing him at safety, and moving Adam Archuleta to LB.

The draft is not about "maximizing talent." It's about players that can help your team maximize performance as a unit. Talent (as determined by the media) is not always the driver behind performance. You need fit first. Talent is secondary to fit.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

"Maximizing talent" is a useless strategy if you determine that a certain player's talents aren't a good fit for the way you play football. In today's NFL when players often leave a team after 3 or 4 years, the player you pick needs to fit into your system quickly. They need to be teachable first and foremost. Their skill sets need to fit your schemes. You can't do something ridiculous like drafting Jimmy Williams, playing him at safety, and moving Adam Archuleta to LB.

The draft is not about "maximizing talent." It's about players that can help your team maximize performance as a unit. Talent (as determined by the media) is not always the driver behind performance. You need fit first. Talent is secondary to fit.

that was a joke you OBVIOUSLY didn't get, since that's the second you've referenced it like that. where did i argue that finding players to fit your system is a bad thing? I've just said that flexibility in drafting is key, which for some reason you've taken up arms against.

I never said anything bad about mcintosh as a player and i'm not the only one that hated the price.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by That Guy

that was a joke you OBVIOUSLY didn't get, since that's the second you've referenced it like that. where did i argue that finding players to fit your system is a bad thing? I've just said that flexibility in drafting is key, which for some reason you've taken up arms against.

I never said anything bad about mcintosh as a player and i'm not the only one that hated the price.

OK fair enough, I've harped on the Archuleta thing enough. I guess I missed the sarcasm. Glad to hear you were kidding.

But as for the price, I don't see what all the fuss is about. According to this draft value chart the 35th pick is worth 550 points. The 53rd is worth 370, so we needed to pay an additional 180 points.

We gave up a 6th rounder this year, which is worth in the realm of 20 points or so. So we still needed to send 160 points to the Jets to make it fair. We sent a second round pick next year, which has the same value as a 3rd round pick this year. Third round picks in the latter half of the 3rd round (we're likely to be in the latter half of the round next year, we should have a winning team) are valued at right around 116-190. The price seems totally reasonable to me. I don't see why you're up in arms, That Guy. Aren't you the one who posts these draft value charts and stuff?

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

OK fair enough, I've harped on the Archuleta thing enough. I guess I missed the sarcasm. Glad to hear you were kidding.

But as for the price, I don't see what all the fuss is about. According to this draft value chart the 35th pick is worth 550 points. The 53rd is worth 370, so we needed to pay an additional 180 points.

We gave up a 6th rounder this year, which is worth in the realm of 20 points or so. So we still needed to send 160 points to the Jets to make it fair. We sent a second round pick next year, which has the same value as a 3rd round pick this year. Third round picks in the latter half of the 3rd round (we're likely to be in the latter half of the round next year, we should have a winning team) are valued at right around 116-190. The price seems totally reasonable to me. I don't see why you're up in arms, That Guy. Aren't you the one who posts these draft value charts and stuff?

what i meant was we could have taken him later on. gibbs got anxious though and the jets placed a call, so the deal was done. pointswise we made out, but the jets didn't care cause they got a pick or two and still got the player they wanted. value charts are used, but they don't match up to specific available players very well.

[hooskins]

One thing that I think is a non factor, is the Wonderlic. I am glad that he isnt a complete idiot, like the rest of the players in the NFL, and got a 29, but seriously that test doesnt really say much. I have taken one for kicks, and it is so easy and boring it becomes difficult to focus while you take it; thats how bad it is. And come on McNabb got a terrible score on that test, and he is one of the better QBs out there. That throws away the fact that a qb "needs" to get 30-40 on that test. No written test can tell you how you perform on the field. Seriously the score really doesnt matter, unless you get low teens or single digits, and that means you have some other really big issues. I think getting a high score isnt that great either, and its especially not a good justification of Rocky. Now I do think its a great added bonus. The part I dont like is it almost seems that to Gibbs, Rocky's score was one of the major factors that affected the Skins choice.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by hooskins

One thing that I think is a non factor, is the Wonderlic. I am glad that he isnt a complete idiot, like the rest of the players in the NFL, and got a 29, but seriously that test doesnt really say much. I have taken one for kicks, and it is so easy and boring it becomes difficult to focus while you take it; thats how bad it is. And come on McNabb got a terrible score on that test, and he is one of the better QBs out there. That throws away the fact that a qb "needs" to get 30-40 on that test. No written test can tell you how you perform on the field. Seriously the score really doesnt matter, unless you get low teens or single digits, and that means you have some other really big issues. I think getting a high score isnt that great either, and its especially not a good justification of Rocky. Now I do think its a great added bonus. The part I dont like is it almost seems that to Gibbs, Rocky's score was one of the major factors that affected the Skins choice.

I think his 3 degree's from college show he's more intellligent (and focused) than his 29 on a wonderlic.

[RedskinPete]

Originally Posted by That Guy

how you get good teams is by covering your bases in FA and drafting the best talent you can use. not overpaying for one player when guys that can also be better quality starters for you are also available. we still need DB and OL depth, those needs didn't magically disappear because we took an OLB.

jon alston also fits your list of needs of being smart and fast.

in order to maximize talent, you have to have more than one player you can live with.

you think the eagles thought they'd get bunkley or justice without an expensive trade? no, but they got both anyways, which can be solid starters for them for 10 years.

trying to jusitify our pick post-draft doesn't have to include bashing the maximizing of talent as wrong, even if the skins choose not to do it.

The OL depth is going to be our down fall and not having a back up plan if Taylor is not able to play in 06! Getting A LB dosen't fill these needs. Didn't we learn any thing from Thomas and Jansen going down? People who don't learn from history are doom to repeat it!!!!!