When is Enough ,Enough?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by mooby

We bullshit a lot on here but I would really love it if everyone, haters and Trumpers alike, would read this article and give me a solid, multi-sentence (looking at you Chico) opinion on it. Especially if that can be done without "Trump is mentally incompetent, and so are his supporters" or "just another MSM fake news piece by someone who is blinded by their hatred of Trump."



The question of why Trump is scandal-proof has perplexed me since he started running for President. This article is the closest thing I've read to actually getting some analysis as to why this phenomenon is unique to him.



I think we can all agree that any number of Trump's scandals would have destroyed any other candidate, and yet he still emerges through the inevitable next one.



https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...cw4dwnWbu3Nu88

I read the article at a glance, and I am sure some of the analysis is reasonable and sound, but I also think it is not as complicated or incomprehensible as the writer makes it seem. Many presidents are able to "do no wrong" with their supporters. Reagan was known as the Teflon president, Bill Clinton was Bill Clinton and could get by with a hearty laugh and a big aw shucks. I don't think it is really that unusual for Presidents to be untouchable, in fact even Nixon won reelection in a landslide at one point.

Basically people want to believe in their elected officials, and forgive all sorts of crap on both sides of the aisle. Look at Robert Byrd he was a flat out racist democrat that held office till he was over 90, or Ted Kennedy consorted with the russians in the middle of the cold war to get Reagan out, but he was a hero to the democrats. It is really only a modern trend that people on both sides of the spectrum actually hold SOME politicians accountable, and even then it almost has to be a smoking gun laced with sexual immorality and/or racial affronts for fairly minor politicians to be disgraced out of office.

I honestly think people like G1 are far more fascinating in that Trump could bring about world peace, offer free healthcare to all, and ensure social security would never fail, and G1/many others would still hate his guts.

Mind you I am not saying he has done any of that and his style is extremely grating to everybody so I get when people who disagree with policy issues attack him incessantly, the republican core did that with Obama as well, even when he had good ideas or policies.

Finally, in this day and age, AND as this forum has repeatedly demonstrated, if you want to find a reason to support or hate trump there is a link for that.



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[sdskinsfan2001]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I read the article at a glance, and I am sure some of the analysis is reasonable and sound, but I also think it is not as complicated or incomprehensible as the writer makes it seem. Many presidents are able to "do no wrong" with their supporters. Reagan was known as the Teflon president, Bill Clinton was Bill Clinton and could get by with a hearty laugh and a big aw shucks. I don't think it is really that unusual for Presidents to be untouchable, in fact even Nixon won reelection in a landslide at one point.

Basically people want to believe in their elected officials, and forgive all sorts of crap on both sides of the aisle. Look at Robert Byrd he was a flat out racist democrat that held office till he was over 90, or Ted Kennedy consorted with the russians in the middle of the cold war to get Reagan out, but he was a hero to the democrats. It is really only a modern trend that people on both sides of the spectrum actually hold SOME politicians accountable, and even then it almost has to be a smoking gun laced with sexual immorality and/or racial affronts for fairly minor politicians to be disgraced out of office.

I honestly think people like G1 are far more fascinating in that Trump could bring about world peace, offer free healthcare to all, and ensure social security would never fail, and G1/many others would still hate his guts.

Mind you I am not saying he has done any of that and his style is extremely grating to everybody so I get when people who disagree with policy issues attack him incessantly, the republican core did that with Obama as well, even when he had good ideas or policies.

Finally, in this day and age, AND as this forum has repeatedly demonstrated, if you want to find a reason to support or hate trump there is a link for that.


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Your bias is showing you Trump cult member.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by sdskinsfan2001

Your bias is showing you Trump cult member.

Your response is weak and shows a lack of willingness to discuss in good faith.

-1

Thank you for your response Cred, Buffalobob.

Bob I am one of those liberals that isn't a Clinton fan, I really don't like her ties to Wall St. The paid speeches indicate she has a vested interest in seeing Wall St. succeed. As someone who hovers on the line between middle-to-lower class due to the high cost of living around here I'm not interested in solutions that make Wall St. wealthier. Trickle-down doesn't work, if you make stock prices go up the only people who benefit are ones who own stock. With all that said in hindsight I feel Clinton should've gotten my vote.

[Buffalo Bob]

Originally Posted by mooby

Your response is weak and shows a lack of willingness to discuss in good faith.

-1

Thank you for your response Cred, Buffalobob.

Bob I am one of those liberals that isn't a Clinton fan, I really don't like her ties to Wall St. The paid speeches indicate she has a vested interest in seeing Wall St. succeed. As someone who hovers on the line between middle-to-lower class due to the high cost of living around here I'm not interested in solutions that make Wall St. wealthier. Trickle-down doesn't work, if you make stock prices go up the only people who benefit are ones who own stock. With all that said in hindsight I feel Clinton should've gotten my vote.

Anybody without a head in the sand knows the quality of the middle class life in this country has went steadily downhill. I was always interested with adult things when I was a kid and loved math. In 1968 we bought a new house in a nice neighborhood in the Palm Springs area 2300 sq ft 4br 2 bath and had a pool put in. Brand new Ford Truck and brand new Volkswagen. We often ate steak, took vacations, and wore decent clothes. My dad was a traffic cop and my mom worked at what now is Target as a cashier. We were a family of 4. Parents got divorced 5 years later with the cars paid off, equity in the house, and no other debts.

Our life would not be happening anywhere in the USA in 2019 on a traffic cop and department store cashier's salary. My dad rarely worked overtime.

Why? It is probably a combination of many things, some without solutions. Offshoring of manufacturing and globalization are one of them. Wage stagnation caused by the prior in a lot of manufacturing sectors another. Illegal immigration probably contributes also to the wage stagnation. Another is even in a recession the cost of housing is still way more expensive adjusted for inflation decades ago.

Good example of cost of housing, the apartment in Orange Count Ca my grandma was paying $155 a month for in 1977 when she died now costs $1575. If that 1977 rent was just adjusted for inflation it would be $655 now.
Who do you blame that on. Back then people with a good work ethic could start training in a skilled trade starting around double minimum wage now those same jobs start trainees at minimum. I also remember buddies starting out bagging groceries at double minimum, now those are minimum wage jobs.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

.

I honestly think people like G1 are far more fascinating in that Trump could bring about world peace, offer free healthcare to all, and ensure social security would never fail, and G1/many others would still hate his guts.

.




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LOL, I am in your head !!! If trump could do all that no one would hate him .He just lies about it and when caught in said lies blames someone else and always has. Simply put some people back trump becuase others don't and that is indirect correlation to the downward spiral of this county. Trump supporters support trump and not the country they give him free reign to commit fraud.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Giantone

LOL, I am in your head !!!.

You probably are, but only because I don't understand how a person can be, apparently, well read, intelligent, presumably financially middle class or better and yet still be completely lacking in the skillsets of reading comprehension, critical thinking, and reasoned debate. It truly boggles my mind...

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[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

You probably are, but only because I don't understand how a person can be, apparently, well read, intelligent, presumably financially middle class or better and yet still be completely lacking in the skillsets of reading comprehension, critical thinking, and reasoned debate. It truly boggles my mind...

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I was thinking the same thing..................

[Buffalo Bob]

Originally Posted by mooby

I think we can all agree that any number of Trump's scandals would have destroyed any other candidate, and yet he still emerges through the inevitable next one.

I closely monitored the polls and the offshore betting odds, those betting odds can be more accurate than the polls sometimes. As a person who votes Republican 98% of the time and despises Hillary Clinton I was starting to become concerned with Trumps early front running position in the primaries. As Trump continued to stick his foot in his mouth Rubio finally passed him to the point Trump's odds were double of Rubio's to win the nomination. Rubio was a strong favorite until the Rubio-bot short circuited in the debate. Rubio instantly sank down the leader board and Trump retook the lead.

After Rubio's misfire I kept watching the odds and polls. Every time Trump got a big negative press hit I would think "That one will drop him down" and I would check his polling numbers and odds and there would be no effect.
I just think he has people who will vote for him no matter what he does and the only other candidate with a strong following was Rubio.

As for him being bullet proof during the final election I think that was a case of who he was running against. I know plenty of democrats that can't stand Hillary Clinton, they probably stayed home or voted 3rd party.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Buffalo Bob

I closely monitored the polls and the offshore betting odds, those betting odds can be more accurate than the polls sometimes. As a person who votes Republican 98% of the time and despises Hillary Clinton I was starting to become concerned with Trumps early front running position in the primaries. As Trump continued to stick his foot in his mouth Rubio finally passed him to the point Trump's odds were double of Rubio's to win the nomination. Rubio was a strong favorite until the Rubio-bot short circuited in the debate. Rubio instantly sank down the leader board and Trump retook the lead.



After Rubio's misfire I kept watching the odds and polls. Every time Trump got a big negative press hit I would think "That one will drop him down" and I would check his polling numbers and odds and there would be no effect.

I just think he has people who will vote for him no matter what he does and the only other candidate with a strong following was Rubio.



As for him being bullet proof during the final election I think that was a case of who he was running against. I know plenty of democrats that can't stand Hillary Clinton, they probably stayed home or voted 3rd party.

Hillary vs Trump was the worst of worsts in terms of both psrties moral character. As to the thread topic that givea me anotger thought, that is pretty true for me.

When i voted for Trump it was 100% antiHC, strong support of his presumed SC justice choice(s), and anti-govt bureaucracy stance. I knew he came with stupid and even ignorant parts, but at the general election policy overrode idiocy, so i already heavily discounted that aspect of his presidency.

I also think the strident nature of both sides increases both sides unwillingbess to bend for the good of the country.

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[mooby]

You really nailed with the COL/wage/inflation relationship expanding since the 70's, salaries just haven't risen the way the price of everything else has. The idea of a blue collar worker making enough to afford to live in the area he works is unrealistic nowadays.

The issue I have with your generation is implying millennials are lazy or entitled when wages just aren't what they used to be. I am one of 26 parts countermen maintaining a fleet of 6200 vehicles, including 1800 school buses, 500-600 police and fire apparatus, around 200 solid waste trucks and everything in between. It's a skilled job that people can't just walk in off the street and learn how to do in a day. It requires constant learning as technology in vehicles also keeps evolving. But the reality is the only coworkers I have that live in Fairfax County bought houses here 30 years ago and are close to retirement. Everyone else lives 20-50 miles down 95 or 66 where the COL is cheaper. Most of us have 2nd jobs because the county doesn't pay well to get by on one salary. You'll never be able to convince me the service we provide isn't worthy of a decent salary. But the reality is when it comes to the budget, we're an afterthought. I'm not even sure citizens know our department exists.

Anyways the point I make is I blame corporations and the gov't for giving tax breaks in exchange for creating jobs, even if it means those jobs are low paying and do nothing to help low-income communities break out of poverty. I blame the wealthy for not paying their fair share of taxes, like they did in the 40+ years after WW2 where the marginal tax rate was between 70-90%. Money buys privilege and power, and the only goal of the wealthy is to keep hoarding as much as possible at our expense. Every day we see a new example of that. Today's example: Jeffrey Epstein. You can't convince me if Epstein was some poor broke fucker that manipulated people into bringing him girls to traumatize he would've gotten off with the sentence he did in '08.

Anyways I know you probably disagree with much of what I just said, but I respect your willingness to engage in discussion civilly.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by mooby

You really nailed with the COL/wage/inflation relationship expanding since the 70's, salaries just haven't risen the way the price of everything else has. The idea of a blue collar worker making enough to afford to live in the area he works is unrealistic nowadays.



The issue I have with your generation is implying millennials are lazy or entitled when wages just aren't what they used to be. I am one of 26 parts countermen maintaining a fleet of 6200 vehicles, including 1800 school buses, 500-600 police and fire apparatus, around 200 solid waste trucks and everything in between. It's a skilled job that people can't just walk in off the street and learn how to do in a day. It requires constant learning as technology in vehicles also keeps evolving. But the reality is the only coworkers I have that live in Fairfax County bought houses here 30 years ago and are close to retirement. Everyone else lives 20-50 miles down 95 or 66 where the COL is cheaper. Most of us have 2nd jobs because the county doesn't pay well to get by on one salary. You'll never be able to convince me the service we provide isn't worthy of a decent salary. But the reality is when it comes to the budget, we're an afterthought. I'm not even sure citizens know our department exists.



Anyways the point I make is I blame corporations and the gov't for giving tax breaks in exchange for creating jobs, even if it means those jobs are low paying and do nothing to help low-income communities break out of poverty. I blame the wealthy for not paying their fair share of taxes, like they did in the 40+ years after WW2 where the marginal tax rate was between 70-90%. Money buys privilege and power, and the only goal of the wealthy is to keep hoarding as much as possible at our expense. Every day we see a new example of that. Today's example: Jeffrey Epstein. You can't convince me if Epstein was some poor broke fucker that manipulated people into bringing him girls to traumatize he would've gotten off with the sentence he did in '08.



Anyways I know you probably disagree with much of what I just said, but I respect your willingness to engage in discussion civilly.

I think super rich is an issue. I define super rich as having a net worth of 100 years of "middle class" annual wage or 70k x100yrs in one year.

I believe over that rate there should be far higher tax rates. But you do have to incentivize capital markets for investment purposes so i probably could never put together a coherent tax strategy. I also don't believe anyone making under 70k should have to pay anything in taxes. I know generally they are leaning most on government, but the system should be geared to getting people on their own instead of creating dependency.

I suppose i am incoherently babbling, but i don't have a clue how to actually fix the things that are so broken in this country, and if i did no politician would listen anyways...

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[Buffalo Bob]

Originally Posted by mooby

The issue I have with your generation is implying millennials are lazy or entitled when wages just aren't what they used to be.

I could even give you my long winded take on just that alone. I will just explain where us old people come from as I am getting my yearly gout attack in my wrist and it even hurts to type. First, the overly ambitious and those that enjoy physical activity are not going to get lazy no matter what. It is the person who is opposite of that will go down the lazy or entitled road if afforded the opportunity. The advance of technology can lead to laziness, I will explain that one first.

I will just give things on how I see them compared to then and now. I was born in 1961, into blue collar lineage. 1968 I am 7 years old, most places had 5 TV channels, there wasn't a lot of programming geared toward children and that was back when dad controlled the remote anyway. That is how you have a bunch of baby boomers like me who remember sporting events that happened when they were as young as 5. So sitting around watching TV for long hours did not happen. You went outside and played army, cowboys and Indians, rode bikes, played sports. There weren't many options to tempt kids who leaned toward being lazy other than maybe books, puzzles, and board games. None of those options available for the lazy kid were available to be done while he should be doing chores or studying. Today you have the internet, video games, and hand held devices where you can spend hours a time doing nothing constructive. Probably you would have just as many lazy kids in my day as today if we had modern technology.

End of part 1, that was elementary school. Will get to High School and the work place differences after I ice my wrist, take more Advil and pick up some groceries I ordered to go. They will shop for you and put them in your trunk for an extra $1.95, I wish they would deliver.

That was a good example of modern technology causing laziness. I ordered my groceries on line, saving shopping with a painful wrist. In the old days I would have had to nut up and do it myself. So instead of in a grocery store I am on the Warpath.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by Buffalo Bob

I could even give you my long winded take on just that alone. I will just explain where us old people come from as I am getting my yearly gout attack in my wrist and it even hurts to type. First, the overly ambitious and those that enjoy physical activity are not going to get lazy no matter what. It is the person who is opposite of that will go down the lazy or entitled road if afforded the opportunity. The advance of technology can lead to laziness, I will explain that one first.

I will just give things on how I see them compared to then and now. I was born in 1961, into blue collar lineage. 1968 I am 7 years old, most places had 5 TV channels, there wasn't a lot of programming geared toward children and that was back when dad controlled the remote anyway. That is how you have a bunch of baby boomers like me who remember sporting events that happened when they were as young as 5. So sitting around watching TV for long hours did not happen. You went outside and played army, cowboys and Indians, rode bikes, played sports. There weren't many options to tempt kids who leaned toward being lazy other than maybe books, puzzles, and board games. None of those options available for the lazy kid were available to be done while he should be doing chores or studying. Today you have the internet, video games, and hand held devices where you can spend hours a time doing nothing constructive. Probably you would have just as many lazy kids in my day as today if we had modern technology.

End of part 1, that was elementary school. Will get to High School and the work place differences after I ice my wrist, take more Advil and pick up some groceries I ordered to go. They will shop for you and put them in your trunk for an extra $1.95, I wish they would deliver.

That was a good example of modern technology causing laziness. I ordered my groceries on line, saving shopping with a painful wrist. In the old days I would have had to nut up and do it myself. So instead of in a grocery store I am on the Warpath.

I think we lived in the same neighborhood.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by Buffalo Bob

I could even give you my long winded take on just that alone. I will just explain where us old people come from as I am getting my yearly gout attack in my wrist and it even hurts to type. First, the overly ambitious and those that enjoy physical activity are not going to get lazy no matter what. It is the person who is opposite of that will go down the lazy or entitled road if afforded the opportunity. The advance of technology can lead to laziness, I will explain that one first.

I will just give things on how I see them compared to then and now. I was born in 1961, into blue collar lineage. 1968 I am 7 years old, most places had 5 TV channels, there wasn't a lot of programming geared toward children and that was back when dad controlled the remote anyway. That is how you have a bunch of baby boomers like me who remember sporting events that happened when they were as young as 5. So sitting around watching TV for long hours did not happen. You went outside and played army, cowboys and Indians, rode bikes, played sports. There weren't many options to tempt kids who leaned toward being lazy other than maybe books, puzzles, and board games. None of those options available for the lazy kid were available to be done while he should be doing chores or studying. Today you have the internet, video games, and hand held devices where you can spend hours a time doing nothing constructive. Probably you would have just as many lazy kids in my day as today if we had modern technology.

End of part 1, that was elementary school. Will get to High School and the work place differences after I ice my wrist, take more Advil and pick up some groceries I ordered to go. They will shop for you and put them in your trunk for an extra $1.95, I wish they would deliver.

That was a good example of modern technology causing laziness. I ordered my groceries on line, saving shopping with a painful wrist. In the old days I would have had to nut up and do it myself. So instead of in a grocery store I am on the Warpath.

I totally agree, I know several people my age that still live with their family members and have no ambition to do anything besides stay home and play games all day.

The ratio of millenials I know who work hard and are saddled with student debt or work two jobs because their main one pays shit to those other people is like 10/1 though. Maybe it's just a northern VA thing where the COL is high , and the problem is more widespread in rural communities? Idk. I def. agree that modern technology has made more people lazy. Your situation isn't one of laziness though, if grocery shopping online because your arthritis makes shopping difficult I'd do the same thing. That's a benefit IMO.

Originally Posted by Cred

I think super rich is an issue. I define super rich as having a net worth of 100 years of "middle class" annual wage or 70k x100yrs in one year.

I believe over that rate there should be far higher tax rates. But you do have to incentivize capital markets for investment purposes so i probably could never put together a coherent tax strategy. I also don't believe anyone making under 70k should have to pay anything in taxes. I know generally they are leaning most on government, but the system should be geared to getting people on their own instead of creating dependency.

I suppose i am incoherently babbling, but i don't have a clue how to actually fix the things that are so broken in this country, and if i did no politician would listen anyways...

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Cred if there's one thing I can agree on, it's that I'm also not smart enough to figure out how to fix the things that are broken in this country. I also agree that a system that would help independent people prosper would be ideal.

[sdskinsfan2001]

Flat tax, with no federal taxes for any single filer on the 1st 30K or 60K for joint filers. This would drastically help middle and lower classes. But democrat and republican politicians will never propose it because they are sucking off the teets of the taxpayers to fund their cronies and they refuse to make any real cuts in spending.

I don't think all businesses and corporations are amazing but I don't think government is either. Government spending is too much. And if you try to cut 1 dollar from any program you're throwing people off cliffs, or you hate the military, etc.

The government should have to bend to the tax money available, not try to find new ways to take more of our money.