I don't really believe in Karma either...

[The Goat]

I'll admit upfront I was one of the few Skins fans who really, really believed Gregg Williams should have been promoted to HC within about 24 hrs of Gibbs retirement. As the JLC article (link below) points out, and I think we all knew it whether we liked or disliked Williams, the man who took this defense from an abomination to a top 10 d for three of his four years held immense respect from players, coaches and staff. I think it spoke volumes when players (from both sides of the ball if memory serves) expressed disappointment that he was not retained as the team's leader.

I'll also admit I thought Saunders deserved, based on the preponderance of evidence his long career makes available, the opportunity to be sole commander of the offensive scheme/playcalling for at least one full year. We will remember JC got the opportunity to observe at the end of last season how Saunders offense could engender some real success, and to boot w/ a less talented QB in Collins at the helm.

Snyder clearly chose to take the team in a very different direction, and I'm not just spewing sour grapes here... just give this another thought. As I've gotten more and more sick to my stomach at what has happened to the team I've searched out old articles, reread a lot of material. The JLC article I linked really struck me in January; however the following excitement of Zorn's hire put it to the back of my mind.

Gregg Williams - Expect Him To Withdraw Saturday - Redskins Insider

When I read it again (yesterday and about 10 times since) it strikes me even more. With Gibbs, the coach w/ the highest character any of us can think of, still packing his things at Redskins Park Snyder had already regressed into the immature, characterless goon he was 4 years earlier. While my heart goes out to nearly all of the players and most of the coaches (and us fans) over what has happened, I believe Snyder deserves the worst franchise in football. The smear campaign was a testament to his utter lack of decency, and while I don't really believe in Karma either... we reap what we sow.

[SmootSmack]

Williams is barely holding on to a job as defensive coordinator in Jacksonville, and Saunders is the orchestrator of I believe the 2nd worst offense in the NFL with the Rams. So let's just dispense with the bull that either one would have been a savior here.

[YellowBirdy]

I'm watching the Philles / Browns game - Do we want to start a new thread about why can't we dominate sides like Phille are dominatinating Cleveland and whether we are toast next w/end

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Williams is barely holding on to a job as defensive coordinator in Jacksonville, and Saunders is the orchestrator of I believe the 2nd worst offense in the NFL with the Rams. So let's just dispense with the bull that either one would have been a savior here.

I don't think you could have missed the point by a wider margin (of course I don't really know what you're aiming at to begin with). Honest people may have an honest disagreement whether Williams/Saunders would have continued to make progress in DC; there is no honest or intelligent defense of the way Snyder and presumably Cerrato handled the firing/hiring circus we all witnessed at the beginning of this year.

[maroonandblack30]

I would LOVE to know the details behind the decision to not hire G. Williams. I was distraught when it was obvious he wasn't going to be the guy. The intial Zorn hype made me forget but I seriously think that was our last chance to have any continuity.

If Zorn is let go after one mediocre season, I will be turning in my fan card for good.

Anyway, I agree.... Snyder gets what he deserves.

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by maroonandblack30

I would LOVE to know the details behind the decision to not hire G. Williams. I was distraught when it was obvious he wasn't going to be the guy. The intial Zorn hype made me forget but I seriously think that was our last chance to have any continuity.

If Zorn is let go after one mediocre season, I will be turning in my fan card for good.

Anyway, I agree.... Snyder gets what he deserves.

Gregg Williams is like Dick Jauron. Good but not good enough!

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I don't think you could have missed the point by a wider margin (of course I don't really know what you're aiming at to begin with). Honest people may have an honest disagreement whether Williams/Saunders would have continued to make progress in DC; there is no honest or intelligent defense of the way Snyder and presumably Cerrato handled the firing/hiring circus we all witnessed at the beginning of this year.

None of us actually witnessed what happened in its entirety. What we do know is that a)Snyder and Cerrato spent hours interviewing Williams (and others) and b) there is no evidence that anyone on the Redskins had anything to do with a "smear campaign," people may be determined to believe otherwise though.

My point is, why are we wasting time with talking about Williams, Spagnuolo, Cowher, what we thought of Zorn at the beginning of the season, etc. What's the point of doing that? I mean, I kind of get it I suppose.

I also don't get this Snyder gets what he deserves. If that's the case, then what does he get for getting Robert Royals' family out of Louisiana when Katrina hit, for getting Todd Collins home to be with his wife when she gave birth, for flying the entire organization to Sean Taylor's funeral, and so on

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

None of us actually witnessed what happened in its entirety. What we do know is that a)Snyder and Cerrato spent hours interviewing Williams (and others) and b) there is no evidence that anyone on the Redskins had anything to do with a "smear campaign," people may be determined to believe otherwise though.

My point is, why are we wasting time with talking about Williams, Spagnuolo, Cowher, what we thought of Zorn at the beginning of the season, etc. What's the point of doing that? I mean, I kind of get it I suppose.

I also don't get this Snyder gets what he deserves. If that's the case, then what does he get for getting Robert Royals' family out of Louisiana when Katrina hit, for getting Todd Collins home to be with his wife when she gave birth, for flying the entire organization to Sean Taylor's funeral, and so on

AGREED! I wish I could have known Jack Kent Cooke in the beginning of his ownership of the Redskins. I wonder if he always made the right choice or how the media would skewer him nowadays. Snyder came in like a raging bull and clearly made some boneheaded football moves, but in terms of caring for his players, or the team, I don't get where the dislike comes from.

Originally Posted by maroonandblack30

If Zorn is let go after one mediocre season, I will be turning in my fan card for good.

I basically agree here; I can't ever really see turning my fan card but letting a rookie head coach go after one season would be a disastrous move for this organization

[Joe Kidd]

Didn't Grilliams just get canned? I think it's crazy that fans can't get over the fact we didn't hire him. Move on already, get a life.

[redsk1]

If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, then it's usually a duck.

The process was horrendous from the start.

Gregg Williams...smeared

Steve Spagnola...smeared

I don't trust VC and I wouldn't put it past him to do such a thing thru the media. I don't understand how one could dismiss the idea when there are numerous occurences.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I'll admit upfront I was one of the few Skins fans who really, really believed Gregg Williams should have been promoted to HC within about 24 hrs of Gibbs retirement. As the JLC article (link below) points out, and I think we all knew it whether we liked or disliked Williams, the man who took this defense from an abomination to a top 10 d for three of his four years held immense respect from players, coaches and staff. I think it spoke volumes when players (from both sides of the ball if memory serves) expressed disappointment that he was not retained as the team's leader.

I'll also admit I thought Saunders deserved, based on the preponderance of evidence his long career makes available, the opportunity to be sole commander of the offensive scheme/playcalling for at least one full year. We will remember JC got the opportunity to observe at the end of last season how Saunders offense could engender some real success, and to boot w/ a less talented QB in Collins at the helm.

Snyder clearly chose to take the team in a very different direction, and I'm not just spewing sour grapes here... just give this another thought. As I've gotten more and more sick to my stomach at what has happened to the team I've searched out old articles, reread a lot of material. The JLC article I linked really struck me in January; however the following excitement of Zorn's hire put it to the back of my mind.

Gregg Williams - Expect Him To Withdraw Saturday - Redskins Insider

When I read it again (yesterday and about 10 times since) it strikes me even more. With Gibbs, the coach w/ the highest character any of us can think of, still packing his things at Redskins Park Snyder had already regressed into the immature, characterless goon he was 4 years earlier. While my heart goes out to nearly all of the players and most of the coaches (and us fans) over what has happened, I believe Snyder deserves the worst franchise in football. The smear campaign was a testament to his utter lack of decency, and while I don't really believe in Karma either... we reap what we sow.

Well written, goat. I too have similar fears about Snyder, but I don't feel I have enough to go on to base any judgement when it comes to how the GW situation was handled.

Let's all remember something, Snyder is very wealthy & made his money through a PR/marketing firm. He sees the world through PR glasses, and it seems the crazy way info gets out of Redskins Park indicates that he is very concerned with spinning things or keeping secrets if possible. I think it's hard as a fan to get an honest view of Snyder, he doesn't address the public personally and his organization is always associated w/some kind of media spectacle; lavar's contract, Coles & the plasma tv story, GW, Spagnoulo saying he didn't want the job while Danny said he wasn't offered it, etc.

for those that point out his humanitarian efforts & generosity to his players, I don't doubt there's something good w/in him. It just appears (again, we're lacking good info.) that when things don't go his way, he resorts to such pettiness. It makes it worse that you never hear his side of the story from him. Seems like a PR/marketing mogul would realize that's not good for his fan base.

[firstdown]

Man are we going to rehash every decision made over and over again for the next 6 months. Its done and after 8 games everyone was happy as could be but we hit a wall and finding out why we hit that wall is what this team needs to look into.

[Ruhskins]

I guess that when you think about it, continuity would have really happened if Saunders and G-Williams had stayed with the team (with GW as HC). One of my biggest criticism of Gibbs after the season we went 10-6 and made it to the playoffs, was of him bringing Saunders and installing a whole new offense. I thought that this was a misktake b/c brining a new offense is just like starting over again. In the years since Gibbs returned, the offense has been the weak link within the team. If the team had kep Saunders and GW, it would have provided the continuity that this team needed. I know it is pointless in dwelling on the past, but maybe things could have been different.

Oh and let's not forget that Saunders' offense beat us in the regular season, and Williams team gave us a horrible beating during preseason.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I guess that when you think about it, continuity would have really happened if Saunders and G-Williams had stayed with the team (with GW as HC). One of my biggest criticism of Gibbs after the season we went 10-6 and made it to the playoffs, was of him bringing Saunders and installing a whole new offense. I thought that this was a misktake b/c brining a new offense is just like starting over again. In the years since Gibbs returned, the offense has been the weak link within the team. If the team had kep Saunders and GW, it would have provided the continuity that this team needed. I know it is pointless in dwelling on the past, but maybe things could have been different.

Oh and let's not forget that Saunders' offense beat us in the regular season, and Williams team gave us a horrible beating during preseason.

I agree. We've had continuity w/the D but not the O, which is harder to get a team comfortable with. That 06 year was a disaster in part due to players reluctance to learn the new O. Add to that the D had problems w/AA et al.