Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look

MTK · 09-13-2005, 12:28 AM

Ok, I let myself dwell on this whole thing for a few hours before making a post. Here's my take.

First let me preface this by saying I like Ramsey and I was really hoping for him to be the man this season. I think he's a talented QB and still has a bright future in this league.

The only thing I ask is that you clear your mind for a moment and think about this objectively. I know as fans we get very emotional and we sometimes get attached to players, whether they're good players or not. But in the end, all that matters is winning football games, and that's what Coach Gibbs is trying to do here. He's not trying to play games, he's not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, he's trying to win games, period, end of discussion.

Ok, here's my view on the change. This idea that Ramsey didn't have a fair shot this year is false. He had the commitment of the staff since the 2004 season ended. He received the majority of the offseason work as the starter, and that carried over into training camp where he took 90% of the snaps in practice. He was given 4 preseason games to stake his claim as the starter. Despite some very shaky performances, Gibbs didn't waver, he stuck with Ramsey when he very easily could have slipped Brunell in there for a start or two.

Can anyone honestly say that based on what we saw from Ramsey this preseason, that he earned the starting job. Before you answer, just think about that a moment. Did he really earn the starting job? If you say yes, please explain what he did this preseason to earn the job. I'd love to hear it.

He threw 4 INTs against 2 TDs in the preseason with a QB rating of 65, and the INTs he threw were the kind of INTs that made you say "Huh? What was he thinking?"

Meanwhile, Brunell's play in the preseason was efficient and turnover free with a QB rating just over 85. Yes it was against backups, but there was a definite improvement in his game, that can't be denied. His trademark accuracy was back, his passes showed zip, he was mobile and moving around in the pocket, and in general he seemed to have a much better feel and control of this offense. Ramsey on the other hand never looked settled or in control.

Perhaps in the end, the biggest mistake Gibbs made was sticking by Ramsey too long this preseason. Or perhaps it goes back further than that, he probably should have opened up the QB competition heading into training camp and let the best man win.

The thing that's concerned me about Ramsey is he's actually looked worse so far this year than he did at the end of last year. Perhaps now we can see why Gibbs ran such a scaled back offense last year with him in there. Perhaps that's why all we saw Ramsey throw were short dink and dunks, maybe that's all he could handle. Fast forward to this year, Gibbs opened up the playbook and look what's happened. Ramsey has the happy feet again, he's holding on to the ball too long, he's indecisive, he's throwing INTs and coughing the ball up when hit. Those are signs of a QB who's not comfortable and doesn't have a firm grip on the offense.

Again, try to take the emotion out of this. Ramsey is still a work in progress, let's face it. Will he improve with time, yeah maybe he will. But after what happened last year, I don't think Gibbs is willing to make the same mistake of sticking with a struggling QB too long.

This team has the elements to be a playoff team this year. Portis looks poised for a big year, and Betts adds a great 1-2 punch to the running attack. The offensive line is much improved over a year ago. We have speed and playmaking ability at the WR position. And needless to say the defense is lights out as expected. The missing element? Stability and efficiency at the QB position, something that Ramsey can't give us right now. You might say, but what did Ramsey do yesterday to lose the job? He shouldn't lose the job due to injury. I answer with, so we should just ignore the 2 fumbles and 1 INT in 3 series worth of work? That sure didn't help his case, that's for sure.

I'll say it again, I like Ramsey, I really do. I think he's got a good future in this league, but right now Brunell appears to be the better option at QB. Put last year out of your mind with Brunell and just focus on what we've seen from him in 2005. He's played well and gives us the best chance to win right now.

I give Gibbs credit for having the guts to make a very difficult decision, but in the end could prove to be a very smart one.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 09-13-2005, 12:35 AM

A very good post Matty, but ultimately I disagree with you. Only time will tell who is right, but in my mind I know that Brunell is not the answer. He will likely look bad (and people will make excuses for him as they did last year until they were ready to lynch him). Brunell likely will also lead us to another losing record (and people will again shift the blame away from Brunell). I know this isn't the most optimistic post, but I'd be lying if I said that I see it any other way.

saskin · 09-13-2005, 12:46 AM

That was a very good post....I stick with Gibbs and whoever he chooses

Sociofan · 09-13-2005, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

This team has the elements to be a playoff team this year. Portis looks poised for a big year, and Betts adds a great 1-2 punch to the running attack. The offensive line is much improved over a year ago. We have speed and playmaking ability at the WR position. And needless to say the defense is lights out as expected. The missing element? Stability and efficiency at the QB position, something that Ramsey can't give us right now.

That's the bottom line.

Like you, I am a HUGE Patrick Ramsey fan. However, his future is not likely in Washington. Call it shell-shock. Call it loss of confidence. Call it the wrong QB for the system. He just isn't fitting into a Gibbs-coached team. All the other pieces are there for a serious playoff run, but PR just did not look like the right trigger man. Better to do this early in the season.

I have seen such tremendous improvement in this team after just one year under Gibbs. Who are we to question his methods? Let's let him give it a try. There is not a better coach out there.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 09-13-2005, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sociofan

I have seen such tremendous improvement in this team after just one year under Gibbs. Who are we to question his methods?

Easy, I'm me.

Paintrain · 09-13-2005, 12:52 AM

Other than Ramsey having a bright future in the NFL, I agree with you Matty.. He may eventually become serviceable but his decision making is poor and his psyche needs a complete overhaul.. I can see him going to somewhere like Seattle or KC as a backup and growing into the position of an ok quarterback...

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 09-13-2005, 12:54 AM

Has anyone else considered how the players might be responding to Gibbs' decision. My understanding is that virtually every player preferred Ramsey to Brunell. Doesn't that say something?

jdlea · 09-13-2005, 12:56 AM

Ben Roethlisberger threw no TD's, 2 picks in the preseason and looked pretty horrendous. That's why preseason games don't count. The Colts went 0 and 5 in the Preseason. The Broncos went undefeated.

I disagree that the Skins have the parts to be a playoff team because you have to be able to throw the football to win games. You can feed me that 2000 Ravens BS all you want, the Skins D doesn't score points like the Ravens did. You have to have a balance of running and passing to win in today's NFL. With Brunell the Skins don't have that, at least with Ramsey I wasn't sure.

Gmanc711 · 09-13-2005, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramseyfan

Has anyone else considered how the players might be responding to Gibbs' decision. My understanding is that virtually every player preferred Ramsey to Brunell. Doesn't that say something?

I can see it now....

Santana Moss wants out of Washington, Traded to Jets for Wayne Crebet

MTK · 09-13-2005, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramseyfan

A very good post Matty, but ultimately I disagree with you. Only time will tell who is right, but in my mind I know that Brunell is not the answer. He will likely look bad (and people will make excuses for him as they did last year until they were ready to lynch him). Brunell likely will also lead us to another losing record (and people will again shift the blame away from Brunell). I know this isn't the most optimistic post, but I'd be lying if I said that I see it any other way.

You say Brunell will look bad, based on what?

Again, forget about last year, focus on what we've seen this year.

So far this year, he's looked just fine, and Ramsey is that one that has looked bad.

Yet people are making excuses for Ramsey.

Sociofan · 09-13-2005, 01:06 AM

Joe might also have done Patrick a favor with this. The fans have been booing him mercilessly. At the stadium, it got real bad real quick on Sunday. Once he threw the pick, the booing never really stopped. I want Ramsey to be a good QB in this league. I like his fearlessness. And why does he make such poor decisions at times? He is certainly one of the smartest QBs I've ever seen. He's lost his confidence (before THIS decision). If he stayed on the field, it might have gotten so bad he'd never recover--or never be given a chance to recover with another team.

Brunell, while not having the physical skills of Ramsey, is more confident and seasoned at QB. He was hurt last year and learning a new system. He DID look much sharper in pre-season with his delivery and his footwork. 2nd string or not, those skills were there. Let's give him a chance.

Dang it is TOUGH playing QB in this town...but we all seem to do it so well.

MTK · 09-13-2005, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramseyfan

Has anyone else considered how the players might be responding to Gibbs' decision. My understanding is that virtually every player preferred Ramsey to Brunell. Doesn't that say something?

Who said they preferred Ramsey to Brunell?

Doesn't really sound like something players would say, yes they'll say they support the starter, but when was the last time you heard a player say I want player X over player Y? I haven't heard it.

Coles actually said on his way out last year that Brunell wasn't the problem with the offense.

This was in the WP today regarding the change

Quote:

Before the move was made yesterday, teammates were diplomatic about the quarterback issue. Portis, perhaps the most outspoken player, declined comment. But almost all said that if Brunell became the quarterback, the transition wouldn't be difficult.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 09-13-2005, 01:12 AM

Matty,

I'm basing my assessment of Brunell based on last year. We can go last year (regular season) or this year (preseason games against backups and one game where he didn't exactly do great). How can anyone possibly say that I'm going to judge Brunell without looking at last year; those were the only regular season games he has ever started in a Redskins uniform.

Moreover, apparently Jacksonville thought that Brunell's days were numbered when they drafted Byron Leftwich. That was two years ago. Does anyone think Brunell is like a fine wine and will improve with age? (He's going to be 36 this Saturday.)

I'm not making excuses for Ramsey. I personally have said that the QB debate isn't cut and dry. People were supporting Ramsey (pretty much across the board) yesterday. Now, everyone has jumped ship with no new developments (except Ramsey's neck is apparently fine).

People will make tons of excuses for Brunell - which they wouldn't do for Ramsey. If you venture back to last season's threads, people were backing Brunell and blaming just about everyone else for the offensive failures. Then, lo and behold, by week 6 people were ready to run Brunell out of town. Brunell didn't sink last season by himself, but he did a lot of damage. Now, people are defending him and criticizing Ramsey. I don't understand the constant change in support. I, for once, would like to see us commit to a quarterback for the long-haul (longer than 15 game-minutes).

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 09-13-2005, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Who said they preferred Ramsey to Brunell?

Doesn't really sound like something players would say, yes they'll say they support the starter, but when was the last time you heard a player say I want player X over player Y? I haven't heard it.

Coles actually said on his way out last year that Brunell wasn't the problem with the offense.

This was in the WP today regarding the change

Of course no one is going on the record. I cannot cite, off the top of my head, the Post article that revealed that most players prefer Ramsey to Brunell, but I am certain that I read it. Of course, if you insist, I will search the Washington Post for old preseason articles about players disclosing their preference of Ramsey to Brunell.

MTK · 09-13-2005, 01:36 AM

RF,

Just answer this simple question, what has Ramsey done this preseason to earn the job?

Ok, I lied, answer two questions, who has looked better so far, Ramsey or Brunell?

The writing is on the wall. Ramsey is not the answer right now, he needs work. Meanwhile Brunell has shown that he can be efficient and he doesn't turn the ball over. It would be silly to keep forcing the issue with Ramsey right now. Gibbs probably should have pulled the plug in training camp.

09-13-2005, 12:28 AM	#1
MTK \m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NY Age: 52 Posts: 99,518	Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look Ok, I let myself dwell on this whole thing for a few hours before making a post. Here's my take. First let me preface this by saying I like Ramsey and I was really hoping for him to be the man this season. I think he's a talented QB and still has a bright future in this league. The only thing I ask is that you clear your mind for a moment and think about this objectively. I know as fans we get very emotional and we sometimes get attached to players, whether they're good players or not. But in the end, all that matters is winning football games, and that's what Coach Gibbs is trying to do here. He's not trying to play games, he's not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, he's trying to win games, period, end of discussion. Ok, here's my view on the change. This idea that Ramsey didn't have a fair shot this year is false. He had the commitment of the staff since the 2004 season ended. He received the majority of the offseason work as the starter, and that carried over into training camp where he took 90% of the snaps in practice. He was given 4 preseason games to stake his claim as the starter. Despite some very shaky performances, Gibbs didn't waver, he stuck with Ramsey when he very easily could have slipped Brunell in there for a start or two. Can anyone honestly say that based on what we saw from Ramsey this preseason, that he earned the starting job. Before you answer, just think about that a moment. Did he really earn the starting job? If you say yes, please explain what he did this preseason to earn the job. I'd love to hear it. He threw 4 INTs against 2 TDs in the preseason with a QB rating of 65, and the INTs he threw were the kind of INTs that made you say "Huh? What was he thinking?" Meanwhile, Brunell's play in the preseason was efficient and turnover free with a QB rating just over 85. Yes it was against backups, but there was a definite improvement in his game, that can't be denied. His trademark accuracy was back, his passes showed zip, he was mobile and moving around in the pocket, and in general he seemed to have a much better feel and control of this offense. Ramsey on the other hand never looked settled or in control. Perhaps in the end, the biggest mistake Gibbs made was sticking by Ramsey too long this preseason. Or perhaps it goes back further than that, he probably should have opened up the QB competition heading into training camp and let the best man win. The thing that's concerned me about Ramsey is he's actually looked worse so far this year than he did at the end of last year. Perhaps now we can see why Gibbs ran such a scaled back offense last year with him in there. Perhaps that's why all we saw Ramsey throw were short dink and dunks, maybe that's all he could handle. Fast forward to this year, Gibbs opened up the playbook and look what's happened. Ramsey has the happy feet again, he's holding on to the ball too long, he's indecisive, he's throwing INTs and coughing the ball up when hit. Those are signs of a QB who's not comfortable and doesn't have a firm grip on the offense. Again, try to take the emotion out of this. Ramsey is still a work in progress, let's face it. Will he improve with time, yeah maybe he will. But after what happened last year, I don't think Gibbs is willing to make the same mistake of sticking with a struggling QB too long. This team has the elements to be a playoff team this year. Portis looks poised for a big year, and Betts adds a great 1-2 punch to the running attack. The offensive line is much improved over a year ago. We have speed and playmaking ability at the WR position. And needless to say the defense is lights out as expected. The missing element? Stability and efficiency at the QB position, something that Ramsey can't give us right now. You might say, but what did Ramsey do yesterday to lose the job? He shouldn't lose the job due to injury. I answer with, so we should just ignore the 2 fumbles and 1 INT in 3 series worth of work? That sure didn't help his case, that's for sure. I'll say it again, I like Ramsey, I really do. I think he's got a good future in this league, but right now Brunell appears to be the better option at QB. Put last year out of your mind with Brunell and just focus on what we've seen from him in 2005. He's played well and gives us the best chance to win right now. I give Gibbs credit for having the guts to make a very difficult decision, but in the end could prove to be a very smart one.

09-13-2005, 12:35 AM	#2
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 45 Posts: 8,317	Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look A very good post Matty, but ultimately I disagree with you. Only time will tell who is right, but in my mind I know that Brunell is not the answer. He will likely look bad (and people will make excuses for him as they did last year until they were ready to lynch him). Brunell likely will also lead us to another losing record (and people will again shift the blame away from Brunell). I know this isn't the most optimistic post, but I'd be lying if I said that I see it any other way.

09-13-2005, 12:46 AM	#3
saskin Special Teams Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: San Antonio Age: 36 Posts: 355	Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look That was a very good post....I stick with Gibbs and whoever he chooses

09-13-2005, 12:52 AM	#6
Paintrain Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Age: 54 Posts: 5,006	Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look Other than Ramsey having a bright future in the NFL, I agree with you Matty.. He may eventually become serviceable but his decision making is poor and his psyche needs a complete overhaul.. I can see him going to somewhere like Seattle or KC as a backup and growing into the position of an ok quarterback...

09-13-2005, 12:54 AM	#7
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 45 Posts: 8,317	Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look Has anyone else considered how the players might be responding to Gibbs' decision. My understanding is that virtually every player preferred Ramsey to Brunell. Doesn't that say something?

09-13-2005, 12:56 AM	#8
jdlea Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, VA Age: 40 Posts: 3,109	Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look Ben Roethlisberger threw no TD's, 2 picks in the preseason and looked pretty horrendous. That's why preseason games don't count. The Colts went 0 and 5 in the Preseason. The Broncos went undefeated. I disagree that the Skins have the parts to be a playoff team because you have to be able to throw the football to win games. You can feed me that 2000 Ravens BS all you want, the Skins D doesn't score points like the Ravens did. You have to have a balance of running and passing to win in today's NFL. With Brunell the Skins don't have that, at least with Ramsey I wasn't sure.

09-13-2005, 01:06 AM	#11
Sociofan Special Teams Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Gainesville, VA Age: 59 Posts: 380	Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look Joe might also have done Patrick a favor with this. The fans have been booing him mercilessly. At the stadium, it got real bad real quick on Sunday. Once he threw the pick, the booing never really stopped. I want Ramsey to be a good QB in this league. I like his fearlessness. And why does he make such poor decisions at times? He is certainly one of the smartest QBs I've ever seen. He's lost his confidence (before THIS decision). If he stayed on the field, it might have gotten so bad he'd never recover--or never be given a chance to recover with another team. Brunell, while not having the physical skills of Ramsey, is more confident and seasoned at QB. He was hurt last year and learning a new system. He DID look much sharper in pre-season with his delivery and his footwork. 2nd string or not, those skills were there. Let's give him a chance. Dang it is TOUGH playing QB in this town...but we all seem to do it so well.

09-13-2005, 01:12 AM	#13
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 45 Posts: 8,317	Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look Matty, I'm basing my assessment of Brunell based on last year. We can go last year (regular season) or this year (preseason games against backups and one game where he didn't exactly do great). How can anyone possibly say that I'm going to judge Brunell without looking at last year; those were the only regular season games he has ever started in a Redskins uniform. Moreover, apparently Jacksonville thought that Brunell's days were numbered when they drafted Byron Leftwich. That was two years ago. Does anyone think Brunell is like a fine wine and will improve with age? (He's going to be 36 this Saturday.) I'm not making excuses for Ramsey. I personally have said that the QB debate isn't cut and dry. People were supporting Ramsey (pretty much across the board) yesterday. Now, everyone has jumped ship with no new developments (except Ramsey's neck is apparently fine). People will make tons of excuses for Brunell - which they wouldn't do for Ramsey. If you venture back to last season's threads, people were backing Brunell and blaming just about everyone else for the offensive failures. Then, lo and behold, by week 6 people were ready to run Brunell out of town. Brunell didn't sink last season by himself, but he did a lot of damage. Now, people are defending him and criticizing Ramsey. I don't understand the constant change in support. I, for once, would like to see us commit to a quarterback for the long-haul (longer than 15 game-minutes).

09-13-2005, 01:36 AM	#15
MTK \m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NY Age: 52 Posts: 99,518	Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look RF, Just answer this simple question, what has Ramsey done this preseason to earn the job? Ok, I lied, answer two questions, who has looked better so far, Ramsey or Brunell? The writing is on the wall. Ramsey is not the answer right now, he needs work. Meanwhile Brunell has shown that he can be efficient and he doesn't turn the ball over. It would be silly to keep forcing the issue with Ramsey right now. Gibbs probably should have pulled the plug in training camp.

Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look

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