Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:

[Daseal]

How much more expensive would Javon walker be to get from the Packers? He's forcing a trade by saying he doesnt want to be a pakcer, I think we could get good value from him. While I like Lloyd as a player he is still a bit inconsistant, but he does have that big play ability. He'll make a few catches that make us cheer to no end.

I have to think even though That Guy put out the stats of targets vs catches. You have to look at the QB and Oline -- most of those balls were probably coming early or offtarget too. Does targetted count if the ball sails way over his head?

Anyhow, just a question!

[EEich]

Huge difference in $... Walker wants top 5 WR money. He wants to leave the Pack because they won't give it to him. What makes you think we'd get him cheaper?

[MTK]

Walker is a #1 WR, we wouldn't have enough balls to go around between him, Moss and Cooley. He'll also be looking for a big contact as EEich already mentioned.

[dgack]

Originally Posted by Daseal

How much more expensive would Javon walker be to get from the Packers? He's forcing a trade by saying he doesnt want to be a pakcer, I think we could get good value from him. While I like Lloyd as a player he is still a bit inconsistant, but he does have that big play ability. He'll make a few catches that make us cheer to no end.

I have to think even though That Guy put out the stats of targets vs catches. You have to look at the QB and Oline -- most of those balls were probably coming early or offtarget too. Does targetted count if the ball sails way over his head?

Anyhow, just a question!

I put up those numbers and while they are extremely subjective in terms of looking at a single receiver, you can absolutely use them to compare two guys.

In this case, someone said Lloyd had great hands because he makes all these exciting catches, and when you look at the numbers, you're talking about half a dozen circus catches on 110 attempts, and over 60 of those targets were not caught. Doesn't make him "bad" per se, because the passing game in SF sucked. But compared to a guy like Santana who was 9th in the NFC in targets and in the top 20 in %targets caught, and it tells you something.

[dgack]

And as for Walker, he's a much better receiver but we can't afford him. And he's not interested in being a WR2. He'll go somewhere and be the star receiver, no doubt,

[Daseal]

How many passes that Santana caught were short routes that he used his speed to the house. I mean, the stats are just to subjective to matter. Also, if Lloyd comes here, I think he may be the primary receiver (hopefully Santana can continue to put up career numbers, but Im not banking on it).

[MTK]

Lloyd our primary receiver??

Moss is clearly our go to guy, I'm not sure why you still doubt his abilities after the kind of season he had, Daseal.

[dgack]

Originally Posted by Daseal

How many passes that Santana caught were short routes that he used his speed to the house.

Obviously short swing passes and screens are higher percentage catches, which is why most of the top guys in the %target/catch stats are RB's. And certainly Santana had some amazing yards after catch numbers this year. But he caught plenty of deep passes, too, or maybe you forgot a certain game at Texas Stadium?

And quite honestly, there's no reason Lloyd couldn't have been doing the same thing, if he was capable. But since he didn't....

Originally Posted by Daseal

I mean, the stats are just to subjective to matter.

If that were true, the Niners would not be parting with Lloyd because he'd be locked up in a humongous contract. They certainly have the cap room.

You can choose to analyze players subjectively or objectively. There's a reason we keep track of stats in games like football, because at the end of the day, you can measure them and say who the champs are and who the chumps are.

Originally Posted by Daseal

Also, if Lloyd comes here, I think he may be the primary receiver (hopefully Santana can continue to put up career numbers, but Im not banking on it).

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. A sixth year all-pro, who's averaged 1200 yards and 8 TD's a season the past 3 years, at the prime of his career, would be demoted to WR2 so Brandon Lloyd could be the "primary receiver"?

Drink up, buddy. There's still plenty of time to be plastered before lunch.

[Skinsfanmania]

Originally Posted by Daseal

How much more expensive would Javon walker be to get from the Packers? He's forcing a trade by saying he doesnt want to be a pakcer, I think we could get good value from him. While I like Lloyd as a player he is still a bit inconsistant, but he does have that big play ability. He'll make a few catches that make us cheer to no end.

I have to think even though That Guy put out the stats of targets vs catches. You have to look at the QB and Oline -- most of those balls were probably coming early or offtarget too. Does targetted count if the ball sails way over his head?

Anyhow, just a question!

Brandon Lloyd didn't tear his ACL last year. Do you really want a receiver who most likely will not be 100% next year. I would much rather have Brandon Lloyd, as long as we can work out a trade with a coulple of mid round picks (this year and next). If we can't work this out we should go after Givens.

[Daseal]

Good point about Walker's injury, but that's also what I think will keep him from getting the money he wants.

I hope I'm wrong about Santana Moss, but he had the best year of his career and it's not fair to expect that to continue. If it does, I'll be extremely excited, but until then I'm still going to stay skeptical.

Want some stats: the only games that Moss got over 100 yards in were against teams with a pass defense ranked #20 or worse. (Thanks to ESPN towards the end of the season for the stat)

[MTK]

Moss also played the majority of the season with no true #2 WR to take the pressure off him and he still put up big numbers.

I wouldn't worry too much about Moss, he might not put up 1400 again, but he won't have to.

With capable WRs around him he will be even more dangerous.

[taylor21dakila]

I agree no that moss will have an ok receiving core around him he wont have to do as much as he did last year but if he does its all good.

[9erman]

I am stunned that Lloyd's name is in the same line with Walker.

[dgack]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Want some stats: the only games that Moss got over 100 yards in were against teams with a pass defense ranked #20 or worse. (Thanks to ESPN towards the end of the season for the stat)

That's a lovely stat that's utterly meaningless, and do you know why? Even the most elite WR's in the league don't get more than 6 or 7 100 yard games a year. In '04, Chad Johnson did it a whopping 3 times. Brandon Stokley did it 5 times. Does that mean Stokley is better than Chad? Of course not.

So in effect you're cutting your sample size in half before you start looking at quality of pass defense, and then saying, "look, he's no good against tough pass defenses!".

If you want to find ways to make the stats "prove" your opinion that Santana sucks, you can do it. But I don't think there are too many people here, in Redskin Park, or at the All-Pro Committee who are going to agree with you.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by 9erman

I am stunned that Lloyd's name is in the same line with Walker.

We're simply comparing our options, no one is putting them in the same class of player, relax bro.