Understanding the Issues: Education

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by firstdown

While I agree teachers get stuck teaching to the test isn't it the basic stuff kids nee to know?

Not really. Teaching to the test is helping the kids figure out how to pick the right answer, as opposed to teaching them the fundamentals that allow them to understand why the answer they chose was correct. The former skill becomes useless when the test is over, while the latter is a base for the next year's education. Skipping the base leaves you with pretty much nothing.

Watch season 4 of the Wire. It may be hyperbole (or maybe not), but it highlights the problem.

[724Skinsfan]

I think the standardized testing are the SOL's actually. It limits creativity in that teachers have to teach the material that will be on the SOL's. Teaching anything else is moot because the SOL's are all that matter for gauging a school districts academic progress.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

I think the standardized testing are the SOL's actually. It limits creativity in that teachers have to teach the material that will be on the SOL's. Teaching anything else is moot because the SOL's are all that matter for gauging a school districts academic progress.

Yeah yous is right. Nobody's forced to take the SAT, that's a college requirement. The SOL or whatever is the standardized test used to measure schools against one another.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

I think the standardized testing are the SOL's actually. It limits creativity in that teachers have to teach the material that will be on the SOL's. Teaching anything else is moot because the SOL's are all that matter for gauging a school districts academic progress.

Yeah, I think that's pretty much it. I once dated this girl who was a schoolteacher (I imagine she still is), and she used to complain about how she had to spend so much time preparing her students for a standardized test that they never spent sufficient time on any creative learning/thinking. She didn't feel she was really preparing her students, or allowed to prepare her students, for real life. On a side note, her colleagues were Jenna Bush and Mike Shanahan's daughter. Kinda cool.

Schneed, I think we're basically on the same page about this. I'm glad that Obama at least seems to have some semblance of a plan, while rough around the edges. My biggest question is where will the funding come from for many of these projects to take place. And would we be depending too much on government funding?

[onlydarksets]

Hey SS - how about a third option for "Abstain"? Would be interesting to see how many are in the middle...

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

Hey SS - how about a third option for "Abstain"? Would be interesting to see how many are in the middle...

Done

[saden1]

Obama's Education Plan will cost about 18 billion annually which means we're not exactly breaking the bank. It's short on details as far as how he will pay for it but giving it's cost estimates and the fact that it's an investment with attachments I am more inclined to be in favor of it even at 30 Billion dollars a year. Lord knows "Rarely is the question asked, Is our children learning?"

[firstdown]

Well if you cannot pass a SOL then why would the teacher be teaching them anything else to start with. Remember this is basic skills not rocket science they have to pass. Maybe he could make it easier for a school to fire a teacher who has over 5 years in the system who is not performing. We allready spend how much on a failing system so lets just throw more money at a failing system. Until we take control over the schools and get parent involvement there is nothing that the fed goverment can do to improve schools. Maybe make it manditory that parents attend parents night or other things or they get fined.

[firstdown]

Smoot one quick search McCain's stance.

John McCain on Education

[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Smoot one quick search McCain's stance.

John McCain on Education

That's the platform he ran on back in 2000. Folks, this ain't the same McCain that even I wanted in the white house back in 2000 (yes, I was a McCain supporter back then).

[SmootSmack]

Thanks, this is a bit more detailed than what I had found. I'll probably keep the poll as is, but we can/should certainly add McCain's position to the discussion. I think we sort of have been already.

[That Guy]

i absolutely will not vote for obama (too much tax and spend), but on education, i see nothing to disagree with... as far as pledging years for education, that's what the military does, and it works really well there (at least for the technical jobs, and they do 50 college credits in 6 months and throw on the GI bill and 100% tuition assistance, and offer to pay the full ride if you go officer or take certain jobs (nurse, etc)).

updating testing standards wouldn't be a bad idea either. charter schools are really hit or miss... post katrina is the best place to observe charters on a massive scale, and so far, while some are WAY above average, others really aren't doing anything better than public schools.

honestly, energy and education are the biggest long term problems facing america (and both affect the economy greatly). mccain has a very good plan on energy (lots of nuclear - one of the cheapest and cleanest, and SAFEST sources of energy, among other things), and he's really not running on education (he may steal some ideas, but i just don't see that as a focus of his beyond a quick press for vouchers, which aren't terrible, but don't really fix the problem either).

obama's education stance looks well researched and workable, though i would like to know the real cost estimates and how it's getting paid for... old newt agreed back in the late 90s that education is terribly out of date and needs to be overhauled to keep the future economy running like a freight train. while the ideas aren't new (most aren't) they'd definitely help.

[onlydarksets]

Fair enough, but if your entire curriculum for English focuses on logical thinking, have you formed the foundation for English that is necessary to learn writing skills over the 12 years of school (vocabulary, grammar, etc)? Same for any other subject.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

Fair enough, but if your entire curriculum for English focuses on logical thinking, have you formed the foundation for English that is necessary to learn writing skills over the 12 years of school (vocabulary, grammar, etc)? Same for any other subject.

As long as your school/teachers are striking the appropriate balance between teaching the core material and teaching how to analyze the questions, then I think the kids are in good shape. Remember, kids don't take these tests every year. They take them in like 1st grade, then 4th, then 7th, then 11th. Or something like that (I don't know the exact years). But my point is there are like 3 or 4 years between tests. In all that time, kids are not spending an inordinate amount of time on the test analysis. They're getting the building blocks over time, then when they come to the year for test time, then they get the analysis stuff.

I'll bet if you ask 4th grade teachers (or whatever year they administer the test), they're probably the ones most aggravated and affected. The other teachers probably don't care much, as they get to focus on core curriculum.

[steveo395]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

As long as your school/teachers are striking the appropriate balance between teaching the core material and teaching how to analyze the questions, then I think the kids are in good shape. Remember, kids don't take these tests every year. They take them in like 1st grade, then 4th, then 7th, then 11th. Or something like that (I don't know the exact years). But my point is there are like 3 or 4 years between tests. In all that time, kids are not spending an inordinate amount of time on the test analysis. They're getting the building blocks over time, then when they come to the year for test time, then they get the analysis stuff.

I'll bet if you ask 4th grade teachers (or whatever year they administer the test), they're probably the ones most aggravated and affected. The other teachers probably don't care much, as they get to focus on core curriculum.

I remember I had big standardized tests in 4th, 8th, and 11th grade and there was very little review for all of them. We would get a little bit of practice with them in the couple weeks before the tests and that was about it. There was very little standardized test review throughout the whole time I was in school. And I just graduated high school a year ago, so this was not very long ago.