6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky

CRedskinsRule · 03-21-2009, 10:05 AM

Beemnseven, i agree about the chemical weapons. i respectfully disagree with the rest. and i guess it's why i get aggravated with political discussions. Often times people, including me, use diversions or ignore valid points to distract the argument, here are a few examples:

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Okay, there are several statements here I profoundly disagree with. First of all, here's the question Americans must ALWAYS ask whenever our troops are sent into harms way: is this conflict worth the life of the person that I love most? Casually tossing around the notion that "we won" without considering the families of dead or injured soldiers is what's demeaning. Especially when you know that they died when Iraq posed absolutely no threat to the United States.

distraction 1 - make the question fit your view, don't look at the view of the writer. it's fine to put a new question out there, but my post was not addressing that question, I think going back in time, the american people clearly supported going to war, once that decision was made (and here people will distract with WMDs talk, but again I am saying once the decision was made).

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Secondly, comparing the death of a soldier in an armed conflict to a criminal who breaks the law and is sent to jail is truly disgusting and certainly not what I would expect to hear from a former serviceman.

distraction 2: change the context of the statement, or take it out of context, and maybe i wasn't clear enough; I was not comparing the soldier who dies in battle to the man goes to jail, i compared the family's feeling of loss. That is no less tragic, and yes i know families who have felt that type of loss.

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Finally, what "greater truth" are you talking about? Is it the truth that politicians have been sending Americans to their deaths in unnecessary, unconstitutional conflicts for far too long? The truth that no American should have to die to support some other country's political process? How about the truth that stability in the Middle East was shaken, not enhanced by our presence in Iraq?

distraction 3: cherry picking lines here is my quote:

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but they may see the it as a part of a greater truth, and gain strength and peace in that vision.

I indicated that the families may find solice by seeing a greater truth, it is not really my, or your, place to say what a family who lost a loved one finds that peace in as each may be different

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Here's the real truth -- Iraq was not worth the life of ONE SINGLE AMERICAN.

distraction 4: layout as real a truth that is clearly a personal opinion. I don't argue that you believe that iraq was not worth a single american life, but i think i could find equally passionate americans who differ in that view.

with all that, i respect your opinions, i understand you passionately believe them, and they have merit in and of themselves. we just disagree.

Schneed10 · 03-22-2009, 12:58 PM

So let me get this straight. The argument supporting the stance that the Iraq war was a failure is based upon saying that we never should have been there in the first place?

That's a whole separate argument. If I take a shot from half court in a non-buzzer beater situation, my coach might not like that I did it, but if it goes in you can't argue it wasn't a success.

There were massive failures with this war, failures that led to spending way more time and money there than we had imagined. But that country now has a democracy instead of an unstable dictator. The economy is beginning to get its legs. Order is being maintained to a level consistent with other middle east nations. And most importantly, human rights have improved 100000% as women are now voting and becoming a significant part of society.

I won't argue that the reasoning to go to war wasn't shaky. But nobody here should argue that the decision in any way diminishes what was accomplished.

Schneed10 · 03-22-2009, 01:00 PM

What would be really interesting is to poll Iraqi citizens: Are you better off/happier today than you were 6-7 years ago?

The Goat · 03-22-2009, 03:27 PM

Well that dialogue went downhill quick LOL.

saden1 · 03-22-2009, 03:54 PM

LOL. Give him a break, I think he's trying to make a point. Wait for it...wait for it...wait for it, it's coming any time now...

Monkeydad · 03-23-2009, 10:00 AM

232 Years later, our nation is still "shaky" and not yet perfected.

Iraq has come a LONG way from being the savage dictatorship they were just a few years ago. In fact, because of our help, it could be said they've progressed faster than we did after our own founding. We trashed our founding documents and started all over again a decade into the experiment.

CRedskinsRule · 03-23-2009, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster

232 Years later, our nation is still "shaky" and not yet perfected.

Iraq has come a LONG way from being the savage dictatorship they were just a few years ago. In fact, because of our help, it could be said they've progressed faster than we did after our own founding. We trashed our founding documents and started all over again a decade into the experiment.

Outstanding point

saden1 · 03-23-2009, 11:52 AM

Perhaps it's time to explore going into Sudan and continue to spread democracy?

BleedBurgundy · 03-23-2009, 01:37 PM

It never ceases to amaze me how so many value an american life over that of any other nationality. When CRedskinsRule discusses the actual gains in Iraq and how our losses could not be viewed as "a complete waste" and that our soldiers did not "die for no reason," it's because he's speaking to the greater good of righting wrongs. I can understand that crowd that rails when they see flag covered coffins but I really believe there is a majority that is simply missing the point. Hussein and his party were violating every single human right. Exterminating mass quantities of human beings. But because those were not americans dying everyday, the sacrifice made by our servicemembers was without merit? REALLY? Time to grow up and work on your world view. It's not all about north america.

saden1 · 03-23-2009, 02:12 PM

Welcome back BB.

BleedBurgundy · 03-23-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saden1

Welcome back BB.

Thanks,good to be back. Add here I had told myself i'd stay out of the parking lot.

CRedskinsRule · 03-23-2009, 02:25 PM

Why is it i am so misunderstood??
I did not say American Millenium??? I said IN THE LAST 1000 years. That means look at every country that has existed between 1009AD and 2009AD and look what it has done for the world, and human individual growth. You might make an argument for Britain, but that's it.

saden1 · 03-23-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Why is it i am so misunderstood??
I did not say American Millenium??? I said IN THE LAST 1000 years. That means look at every country that has existed between 1009AD and 2009AD and look what it has done for the world, and human individual growth. You might make an argument for Britain, but that's it.

Huh? You are not misunderstood, when you say "in the last 1000 years" you are saying the last 1000 years are in the bag for America which means it's an American Millenium.

Schneed10 · 03-23-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saden1

Huh? You are not misunderstood, when you say "in the last 1000 years" you are saying the last 1000 years are in the bag for America which means it's an American Millenium.

Jesus Christ saden, are you dense?

He's saying no country THAT HAS EXISTED SOMETIME DURING THE LAST 1000 YEARS has made a greater impact than the United States.

And he's right.

saden1 · 03-23-2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Jesus Christ saden, are you dense?

He's saying no country THAT HAS EXISTED DURING THE LAST 1000 YEARS has made a greater impact than the United States.

And he's right.

LOL...what part of my speech contradicts that statement?

03-22-2009, 12:58 PM	#2
Schneed10 A Dude Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Newtown Square, PA Age: 46 Posts: 12,458	Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky So let me get this straight. The argument supporting the stance that the Iraq war was a failure is based upon saying that we never should have been there in the first place? That's a whole separate argument. If I take a shot from half court in a non-buzzer beater situation, my coach might not like that I did it, but if it goes in you can't argue it wasn't a success. There were massive failures with this war, failures that led to spending way more time and money there than we had imagined. But that country now has a democracy instead of an unstable dictator. The economy is beginning to get its legs. Order is being maintained to a level consistent with other middle east nations. And most importantly, human rights have improved 100000% as women are now voting and becoming a significant part of society. I won't argue that the reasoning to go to war wasn't shaky. But nobody here should argue that the decision in any way diminishes what was accomplished. __________________ God made certain people to play football. He was one of them.

03-22-2009, 01:00 PM	#3
Schneed10 A Dude Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Newtown Square, PA Age: 46 Posts: 12,458	Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky What would be really interesting is to poll Iraqi citizens: Are you better off/happier today than you were 6-7 years ago? __________________ God made certain people to play football. He was one of them.

03-22-2009, 03:27 PM	#4
The Goat Pro Bowl Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 5,662	Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky Well that dialogue went downhill quick LOL. __________________ 24-34

03-22-2009, 03:54 PM	#5
saden1 MVP Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Seattle Age: 46 Posts: 10,069	Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky LOL. Give him a break, I think he's trying to make a point. Wait for it...wait for it...wait for it, it's coming any time now... __________________ "The Redskins have always suffered from chronic organizational deformities under Snyder." -Jenkins

03-23-2009, 10:00 AM	#6
Monkeydad Living Legend Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: PA Age: 47 Posts: 17,460	Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky 232 Years later, our nation is still "shaky" and not yet perfected. Iraq has come a LONG way from being the savage dictatorship they were just a few years ago. In fact, because of our help, it could be said they've progressed faster than we did after our own founding. We trashed our founding documents and started all over again a decade into the experiment. __________________ Not sent from a Droid, iPhone, Blackberry or toaster

03-23-2009, 11:52 AM	#8
saden1 MVP Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Seattle Age: 46 Posts: 10,069	Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky Perhaps it's time to explore going into Sudan and continue to spread democracy? __________________ "The Redskins have always suffered from chronic organizational deformities under Snyder." -Jenkins

03-23-2009, 01:37 PM	#9
BleedBurgundy Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,471	Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky It never ceases to amaze me how so many value an american life over that of any other nationality. When CRedskinsRule discusses the actual gains in Iraq and how our losses could not be viewed as "a complete waste" and that our soldiers did not "die for no reason," it's because he's speaking to the greater good of righting wrongs. I can understand that crowd that rails when they see flag covered coffins but I really believe there is a majority that is simply missing the point. Hussein and his party were violating every single human right. Exterminating mass quantities of human beings. But because those were not americans dying everyday, the sacrifice made by our servicemembers was without merit? REALLY? Time to grow up and work on your world view. It's not all about north america.

03-23-2009, 02:12 PM	#10
saden1 MVP Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Seattle Age: 46 Posts: 10,069	Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky Welcome back BB. __________________ "The Redskins have always suffered from chronic organizational deformities under Snyder." -Jenkins

03-23-2009, 02:25 PM	#12
CRedskinsRule Living Legend Join Date: Aug 2008 Age: 59 Posts: 21,744	Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky Why is it i am so misunderstood?? I did not say American Millenium??? I said IN THE LAST 1000 years. That means look at every country that has existed between 1009AD and 2009AD and look what it has done for the world, and human individual growth. You might make an argument for Britain, but that's it.

6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky

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