My Thoughts On The Glenn Beck Rally

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

It depends on the type of nut you turn into. If you turn into a right-wing Nazi terrorist then most likely not. If you turn into ACORN, yes.

If you turn into a pecan, well, then you'll just be made into a pie.

Now if someone would just give a useful if meaningless Simpsons reference the checklist would be complete!

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

You are officially more smarterized than me. Well done.

Thanks - I try to take a scientifical approach to things.

[Beemnseven]

Seems to me that Jefferson and the rest of the drafters of the Declaration of Independence could very easily have substituted "Almighty God" for "our Creator" -- to eliminate any doubt.

The fact that they didn't has to account for the fact that they weren't as certain about the whole thing as modern day evangelicals would have us believe.

[wolfeskins]

[QUOTE=BleedBurgundy;726506]I dismiss insanity pretty readily. When someone gets up and starts claiming that we as a nation need to turn back to a mythological being in hopes of fixing real world problems... sorry, I don't need to listen to that nonsense. I wonder... if this were someone saying that the US needs to turn to Allah for guidance in order to restore honor (whatever the hell that even means), how would that work out? Buddha? Pastafarianism? Sorry, crazy is crazy. I don't pay attention to the guy on the train rambling about the end of the world and I likewise can't be bothered with an uneducated blowhard spouting equivalent drivel. The only reason it's even worthy of discussion is that there are at least 300,000 like minded lunatics.[/QUOTE]

so you think christians are insane lunatics? people like you are the reason this country is so screwed up.

[Beemnseven]

Then we have to contend with the issue of the Treaty of Tripoli, signed into law by President John Adams, (many of whom consider to be among the most Puritanical of the Founders) which says...

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me ... much more, in fact, than the relatively vague "Creator" mention.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Seems to me that Jefferson and the rest of the drafters of the Declaration of Independence could very easily have substituted "Almighty God" for "our Creator" -- to eliminate any doubt.

The fact that they didn't has to account for the fact that they weren't as certain about the whole thing as modern day evangelicals would have us believe.

They could have written any number of equivalent titles. To assert the Founding Fathers weren't "certain" of their belief that the "Creator", "Almighty God", the "Divine Being", the "Holiest of Holies", etc. existed and granted certain inalienable rights to humans is to completely disregard their writings and statements made at the time. It is an assertion which is clearly contradicted by historical fact.

The "modern day evangelicals" often misconstrue what the Founders meant by certain stateemnts relating to religion and God in order to make it in accord with their own belief system. However, the misuse of the Founder's words by some does not discount the firmness and conviction of the Founders underlying beliefs which can only be determined fully by looking at those words in the context of their time and in the context of the otherwise stated beliefs of those who made them.

[wolfeskins]

the government no but the united states of america yes.

[Beemnseven]

If the framers founded this nation upon "Judeo-Christian values" as many contend, why does the very first amendment to the Constitution guarantee freedom of religion, when the first of the most basic laws of the Hebrew God command that "[he] is the lord thy god, and [we] shall have no other gods before him" ??

So it would appear that the first amendment is be in direct conflict with the first commandment. Not what you'd expect from the men who created this nation upon Judeo-Christian values.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

If the framers founded this nation upon "Judeo-Christian values" as many contend, why does the very first amendment to the Constitution guarantee freedom of religion, when the first of the most basic laws of the Hebrew God command that "[he] is the lord thy god, and [we] shall have no other gods before him" ??

So it would appear that the first amendment is be in direct conflict with the first commandment. Not what you'd expect from the men who created this nation upon Judeo-Christian values.

Remember the 1st Amendment was written in many ways with respect to the liberties that were being repressed by the King of England. That included the freedom to establish Protestant churches instead of Anglican (or Church of England) ones. As for the Treaty of Tripoli, what were we supposed to say, that we were in search of a holy were with the "musselmans"??? Political expediency was and is alive and well.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Seems to me that Jefferson and the rest of the drafters of the Declaration of Independence could very easily have substituted "Almighty God" for "our Creator" -- to eliminate any doubt.

The fact that they didn't has to account for the fact that they weren't as certain about the whole thing as modern day evangelicals would have us believe.

I believe they said exactly what they meant to say and didn't play games. They are meaning God in the generic sense. Not necessarily their own specific God. They were in the midst of unshackling themselves from religious tyranny so they understood the err of citing one specific theological God. I don't think what they said was at all less "certain" more than it was meant to be more accessible.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Then we have to contend with the issue of the Treaty of Tripoli, signed into law by President John Adams, (many of whom consider to be among the most Puritanical of the Founders) which says...

Seems pretty cut and dry to me ... much more, in fact, than the relatively vague "Creator" mention.

The US wasn’t founded on "the Christian Religion". Rather it was founded on the freedom of religion. The founders were not atheists. They were, however, very concerned with any attempt by the State to coerce anyone into any religion by government action.

On one hand, Madison writes of religion in govt. as evil:

What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.

Pres. James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785 Quotes on Religion - James Madison

At the same time, Madison was a firm believer in Christianity and felt only by freedom of choice could both good government and religious pursuits.

It is a pleasing and persuasive example of pious zeal, united with pure benevolence and of a cordial attachment to a particular creed, untinctured with sectarian illiberality. It illustrates the excellence of a system which, by a due distinction, to which the genius and courage of Luther led the way, between what is due to Caesar and what is due God, best promotes the discharge of both obligations. The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity.

Letter from James Madison to F.L. Schaeffer

Despite the need for separation, Madison also felt that the principles of “Christian forbearance, love and charity” were necessary for civil society.

Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess, and to observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us. If this freedom be abused, it is an offense against God, not against man: To God, therefore, not to man, must an account of it be rendered.

Religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, that all men should enjoy the fullest toleration in the exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience, unpunished and unrestrained by the magistrate, unless under color of religion any man disturb the peace, the happiness, or safety of society, and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love and charity toward each other.

James Madison (My emphasis).

Again, to try and disassociate the Founders’ belief in God and their creation and adoption of the founding documents is simply wrong. It is also wrong, however, to assert that the Founders intended to found an evangelical (or, for that matter, any particular type of) “Christian Nation”. Rather, they intended to found a nation based on the liberties they saw encapsulated in “natural law” and, accordingly, believed that the “inalienable rights” they stated within the Declaration and the Constitution were rights granted man by a Divine Being. Given that they were granted divinely, there was no way these rights could be legitimately denied by other men. Nothing more, nothing less.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

If the framers founded this nation upon "Judeo-Christian values" as many contend, why does the very first amendment to the Constitution guarantee freedom of religion, when the first of the most basic laws of the Hebrew God command that "[he] is the lord thy god, and [we] shall have no other gods before him" ??

So it would appear that the first amendment is be in direct conflict with the first commandment. Not what you'd expect from the men who created this nation upon Judeo-Christian values.

I think it is quite clear they believed in God and believed that our rights were afforded to us by a God. It is also quite clear they didn't attempt to define what or who that God was. Trying to establish a form of gov't based on a specific religion isn't the same as establishing a form of gov't based on one's values, which are in alignment in a general sense with a religion. They believed in God. They believed we exist because of God. They believed we had rights given us by God. They believed it wasn't their right to define that God for us and/or even make you believe in the same thing.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

If the framers founded this nation upon "Judeo-Christian values" as many contend, why does the very first amendment to the Constitution guarantee freedom of religion, when the first of the most basic laws of the Hebrew God command that "[he] is the lord thy god, and [we] shall have no other gods before him" ??

So it would appear that the first amendment is be in direct conflict with the first commandment. Not what you'd expect from the men who created this nation upon Judeo-Christian values.

Give unto Ceasar that which is due Ceasar. Give unto God that which is due God.

As shown in my post above, the Framers firmly believed in the separation of church and state. To me, this is absolutely in line with the Judeo Christian tradition. As I stated earlier, it is my belief that the God revealed in the Talmud and Bible is a God who asks us to freely choose him. Separation of church and state not only permits this but is conducive to such a choice. Despite the attempts of many, belief cannot be mandated, legislated or coerced. For it to be real, it must be chosen. The Founders recognized this and, accordingly, protected that choice through the First Amendment.

Nothing in the First Amendment places anyone or any God above any other. Instead, the Amendment guarantees that each of us is allowed to recognize (or deny) that "[he] is the lord thy god, and [to] have no other gods before him" .

[wilsowilso]

This thread is amazing.

Remember the United States is never going to be a Christian Nation, but rather a nation made up of many Christians.

The former would be very very bad, but the later is just what we have always been.

[firstdown]

This thread needs a DISTRACTION.

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