Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Here is a link to most of the jobs that are available at this time in my area:
http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeek...=PI&lr=cbga_ca
That comes straight from the local newspaper online. It's NEVER good here, but there are always a few jobs to shoot for.
I had my share of no calls when I applied to jobs, shit happens. I know I'm too old / out of shape for a bust ass labor job. I need something that is not very physical.
We have an employment agency in town that is always looking for people to work at constructors digging ditches and such. They don't care about age. Maybe you have something like that in your town (job placement agency that is).

It's just as bad here if not worse. We have had just every single factory closed in this area. Thousands have lost their jobs and have had to sale their homes, uproot and move. I'm quite lucky because I was able to find a programming job for a non-profit community service board. Which means, I basically get paid half of what other programmers doing the same thing would get paid for, but those jobs just don't exist around here.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Not a whole lot of people make min. wage.
Those that do, make it for a reason, and it's not cause they are exceptional employees.

Huh?

Why do we have so many people below the poverty line?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Huh?

Why do we have so many people below the poverty line?

The poverty line and $5.15 (now $5.75) are two different things. Isn't it anyone that makes under 20k is under the poverty line? That's around $9.61 an hour. Unsure of where it is for sure. But you're talking about two different things...and you totally missed my point of people that are making that low of an income are making that for a reason. Great employees don't make min wage, and ANYONE COULD be a great employee...don't you agree?

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Hold up...are you telling me there are no colleges near you at all? No community colleges you can commute to? There should be no need for room and board.
Yes, books are a part...buy used and save big.
Activity fees? What activities will you be doing? You should be focusing on school work and actual work, activities are a luxury.
The cost to apply is small. $39 I think.

Again, you go to night school and don't quit your job. You are assuming you need to quit your job and do what a 19 year old kid does when he moves to college...that's just not required.

If tuition is covered, there is very little other expenses required to make it.

ps- you can get a refurbished computer from the school if you just ask.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Save big on used books? LOL!!!! When I was in college, I bought all of my books used and the average cost per book was $60. Every student is required to pay an activity fee. It might be called a technology fee, considering which college you go to, but this is not a luxury fee. It cost me $200 to apply to the college I graduated from. And I think you're assuming I'm only talking about adult students. I am talking about going to college in general. I had to drive an hour to the closest University just to avoid the high cost of room and board.

You can't just limit your scope to community college. In today's world, community college is just an extension of high school. The job market is so competitive, that even those with bachelor degrees often find it difficult to find work. A community college education is only effective in getting a student to the next level in education.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

It's just as bad here if not worse. We have had just every single factory closed in this area. Thousands have lost their jobs and have had to sale their homes, uproot and move. I'm quite lucky because I was able to find a programming job for a non-profit community service board. Which means, I basically get paid half of what other programmers doing the same thing would get paid for, but those jobs just don't exist around here.

I understand...we had a few mines close and a lot of people left town. My wife works for a non profit orginization, so I am fully aware of what they pay.
I was lucky enough to find my job too. I make less than I should, but I'll make it with a smile on my face!

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

It's just as bad here if not worse. We have had just every single factory closed in this area. Thousands have lost their jobs and have had to sale their homes, uproot and move. I'm quite lucky because I was able to find a programming job for a non-profit community service board. Which means, I basically get paid half of what other programmers doing the same thing would get paid for, but those jobs just don't exist around here.

If you're talking about Martinsville, then yeah, it doesn't get much worse anywhere in the country (Unemployment rate as of October 26, 2007 = 8.8%. )

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

If you're talking about Martinsville, then yeah, it doesn't get much worse anywhere in the country (Unemployment rate as of October 26, 2007 = 8.8%. )

Yep! Everywhere else, even Roanoke looks like New York City compared to our employment here.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by jsarno

The poverty line and $5.15 (now $5.75) are two different things. Isn't it anyone that makes under 20k is under the poverty line? That's around $9.61 an hour. Unsure of where it is for sure. But you're talking about two different things...and you totally missed my point of people that are making that low of an income are making that for a reason. Great employees don't make min wage, and ANYONE COULD be a great employee...don't you agree?

I'm well aware that the poverty line and minimum wage are 2 different things but in the grand scheme of things does it really matter? Point is you have people out there that can barely support themselves, even on $10 an hour. I think there are plenty of great workers out there making shit money, just as there are plenty of people out there who are shit workers making great money.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Save big on used books? LOL!!!! When I was in college, I bought all of my books used and the average cost per book was $60. Every student is required to pay an activity fee. It might be called a technology fee, considering which college you go to, but this is not a luxury fee. It cost me $200 to apply to the college I graduated from. And I think you're assuming I'm only talking about adult students. I am talking about going to college in general. I had to drive an hour to the closest University just to avoid the high cost of room and board.

You can't just limit your scope to community college. In today's world, community college is just an extension of high school. The job market is so competitive, that even those with bachelor degrees often find it difficult to find work. A community college education is only effective in getting a student to the next level in education.

LOL...you obviously don't know what it takes to go to school at night and not live there. The last I knew (granted like 5 years ago) it was $39 to go to NMSU here in town. They offer associates degrees, and bachelor degrees without having to go to class during the day at all. I seriously doubt that we have the only college in the country that does that. You don't need to go to the BEST college in the area, save the money and go to cheaper college.
I have done it all man. I've lived at college (cost me $14k a semester), I've done night school (cost me 2k a semester), and I've done internet classes ($200 or so per class). You have preconceived notions of what college should be, and trust me, hundreds of thousands of older people are working full time and getting degrees at night.

I don't know what expensive college you are going to, but when I went to Harding University (14k a semester) I bought all my used books at around $20-$65 a book max. Also, there are ways to buy it from college students for even cheaper. You have to be willing to look. One semester I bought all my books from a couple students and spent maybe $100. Rough.
So again, I ask, if someone took care of your tuition, you couldn't find a way to pay for books? Give me a break man.

[FRPLG]

I wish there was some good way to quantify the "Poor Picture". There are many people who think that most poor people are just lazy or are simply poor due mostly to their own doing. There are just as many who think the exact opposite. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Based on my experiences and my knowledge I tend to think there are a lot more people out there who have financial difficulty because they refuse to act financially responsible rather than those whose situation is totally or even mostly out their control.

I do recognize though that I, as does probably everyone else on this board, have very limited point of view when it comes to this stuff.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'm well aware that the poverty line and minimum wage are 2 different things but in the grand scheme of things does it really matter? Point is you have people out there that can barely support themselves, even on $10 an hour. I think there are plenty of great workers out there making shit money, just as there are plenty of people out there who are shit workers making great money.

I disagree that there are plenty of great workers making shit money. If they are great, they are moved up. I suppose they have to start somewhere, so maybe if they are new to the company, then I can see your point. But hard workers are hard to come by, so when they are found, they are advanced.
I absolutely agree that there are shit workers making great money. I also agree that is difficult for some to support themselves on $10 an hour. That's why I moved from Boston to Carlsbad, NM. Boston costs too much to live and I knew I'd be in a constant battle to make enough money to live. Boston is one of the highest costs of living in the country, and I loved it there, but I made the decision to leave.
If you live in DC or Boston, and you make $10/hr, you're not going to make it. That's why you PLAN AHEAD! Leave the area, get a degree...whatever it takes to live comfortable for life. I have retirement plans, most my age don't cause they don't plan ahead...is this my problem...nope.
I also find it interesting that people will be making $7 an hour and keep plopping out babies. If you can't support yourself, learn how not to create more financial issues.

It all comes down to self responsibility. We can go around and around with other issues, but it all comes down to self responsibility.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by jsarno

It all comes down to self responsibility. We can go around and around with other issues, but it all comes down to self responsibility.

This I agree with 100%.

We seem to be going back and forth, but I think what's getting lost is that public welfare programs should take care of nothing more than a person's needs, that's it. If you're actually arguing that the government should provide people with anything more than shelter, water, food, heat, and healthcare, then for god's sakes go start your own communist country, because that's what you're advocating. If you can afford anything beyond those basic needs, then you don't need the help. The taxpayers should not be subsidizing your XBox, your plasma TV, or your new suit. Hardworking people earn their money; they should be able to satisfy their own desires, and their children's desires before giving the poor anything beyond what they NEED.

To bring the discussion back on topic, the debate really is about one thing: is healthcare a need, or a luxury? My personal feelings are varied on the matter. For kids, it's a need. You can't expect them to afford it, and denying them care because their parents can't afford it would be like denying them a shot to grow up and afford healthcare on their own. For adults, only emergency care is a need. If you're hit by a bus, you should be given care (as hospitals do) whether you have coverage or not. As for preventative, elective, terminal, psychiatric, rehabilitation, and pain management, I view all of these forms of treatment as luxuries, not needs. Therein lies the true debate - and it's virtually impossible to come to an agreement.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by jsarno

LOL...you obviously don't know what it takes to go to school at night and not live there.

I obviously do since I've done so.

Originally Posted by jsarno

save the money and go to cheaper college.
I have done it all man. I've lived at college (cost me $14k a semester), I've done night school (cost me 2k a semester), and I've done internet classes ($200 or so per class). You have preconceived notions of what college should be, and trust me, hundreds of thousands of older people are working full time and getting degrees at night.

You know absolutely nothing about my area, so don't say, "save money and go to a cheaper college." I went to the closest college I could commute to. It wasn't me choosing the best, most expensive college. It was me choosing the closest one that offered a bachelors degree in my career of study. You are also assuming I know nothing about working and going to college at the same time. I have worked six and seven day weeks while being a full time student AND maintaining my spot on the Dean's list. Just because things were/are cheaper in your area doesn't mean this is so everywhere else.

Originally Posted by jsarno

I don't know what expensive college you are going to, but when I went to Harding University (14k a semester) I bought all my used books at around $20-$65 a book max. Also, there are ways to buy it from college students for even cheaper. You have to be willing to look. One semester I bought all my books from a couple students and spent maybe $100. Rough.
So again, I ask, if someone took care of your tuition, you couldn't find a way to pay for books? Give me a break man.

Who are you to say I didn't do this? Because I had to pay more for my textbooks than you did doesn't mean I wasn't willing to look. Please don't get a self-righteous attitude that everybody else is lazy and unwilling to help themselves.

And anyway, all that wasn't even my point on college. My point is, free tuition programs are great if you can qualify, but tuition is just a part of the cost of college.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

To bring the discussion back on topic, the debate really is about one thing: is healthcare a need, or a luxury? My personal feelings are varied on the matter. For kids, it's a need. You can't expect them to afford it, and denying them care because their parents can't afford it would be like denying them a shot to grow up and afford healthcare on their own. For adults, only emergency care is a need. If you're hit by a bus, you should be given care (as hospitals do) whether you have coverage or not. As for preventative, elective, terminal, psychiatric, rehabilitation, and pain management, I view all of these forms of treatment as luxuries, not needs. Therein lies the true debate - and it's virtually impossible to come to an agreement.

Yeah, I'd have a hard time believing that insulin shots for diabetics would be a luxury item.

[jsarno]

I called my buddy and asked him about that program, and he couldn't remember the name but said it was through the department of labor. He said his wife went and got her nursing degree...they paid for the college and paid around $150 a month too.
I'm going to call the DOL tomorrow to get the name of the program.