The Obama Years- A GOP love story

[tshile]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Reagan's era dealt with wired phones, newspapers, and commodore 64s(well maybe IBM mainframes) not high speed video feeds, instantaneous news feeds from multiple sources, and Intel computers dealing with terabytes of data.

Yet he still had the information immediately and it still took 4 days. And he still made that comment in his book.

Yet he's the only used to criticize the current reaction.

I get that the current Administration sucks at foreign policy. What's funny/sad/amusing is the lengths some people go to find criticism.

They could have at least looked into how long it took Regan to respond before chastising Obama, since they clearly couldn't remember themselves.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Reagan's era dealt with wired phones, newspapers, and commodore 64s(well maybe IBM mainframes) not high speed video feeds, instantaneous news feeds from multiple sources, and Intel computers dealing with terabytes of data.

Yes, but the Russians dealt with the same tech restraints. I dont think has to do with policy and strategy with the soviets, in fact, probably was harder with what you mentioned above, it was more of a poker game when things went silent.

[Chico23231]

People who keep mentioning armed conflict with Russia are completely dismissing the steps Obama has CLEARLY FUCKED UP. You dont have directly use force, did Reagan? No, but he toppled the Soviet...come'on think a little

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

People who keep mentioning armed conflict with Russia are completely dismissing the steps Obama has CLEARLY FUCKED UP. You dont have directly use force, did Reagan? No, but he toppled the Soviet...come'on think a little

Is this sarcasm? If so, it's going wayyyy over my head.

[NC_Skins]

You know it's bad when Darth Vader is polling higher than all the potential 2016 Presidential candidates.

Darth Vader is polling higher than all potential 2016 presidential candidates - The Washington Post

[Giantone]

I think we can admit ,Reagan wasn't dealing with Putin either .The situations and times are very different .

[Chico23231]

Will anyone stop ISIS? - CNN.com

tell ya, the things we go to war over and not go to war over is funny. genocide, nope, we dont have time to fight against that.

[CRedskinsRule]

This will turn in to a too long didn't read rambling post. Warning you upfront so you can choose to skip it, probably will be a rant against the current administration, but I want to say up front, republicans are idiots too, they just don't have much sway on the topics that are sitting on my mind leading to this rant. So please don't think I am favoring a return to the 2000 Bush presidency or the similar corporate shells of republicans. I wish we could somehow find a way back to real limited, decidedly neutral, government programs that benefit society and our national interests not individual groups, be they rich uppers, or poor lowers. We are tearing ourselves apart from the inside as the parties play off each other to distract us from their little clique.

And that's not even the rant!

I want to list several events in my mind, most of which point to gross incompetence, or pure lack of understanding, by those who are supposed to be defending our national security, but instead are collecting terabytes of data on our own citizens:
again, most of these are republican talking points but by no means am I arguing that the Republicans would have been better if they led the government, and sadly it's probably not all inclusive, only the items that weigh on my feeble mind.:

• Benghazi
• Russian flights testing US airspace
• Chinese intercept of US patrol planes
• Chinese assertion of rights over disputed territories
• Corporations merging with international partners and transferring out of the US to avoid new taxes
• regional conflicts (Ukraine, Isr/Gaza, Libya )

In several of these the US position has either been "we didn't know" or "if you do x we will be mad at you"

It reminds me (and I was only 11-12 at the time, so this part is probably heavily biased by a very conservative father's clearly expressed opinions) of Jimmy Carter's presidency. One in which the US seemed unwilling or unclear on how to act on an international stage. Jimmy Carter is a great humanitarian, and I respect him as such, but I also believe that he thinks - or did when he was in office- that all societies and leaders of societies hold to the same values as the US professes too. I think Pres. Obama shares that vision. And that is bad for the US, and in my opinion, the world. I think he acts in the belief that others, not labeled Republican, will do "the right thing" as he defines it. Thus, while he can't deal with Republicans, because he knows they just don't get his world view, he defines US national policies in ways that assume that the other leaders abide in it. I do think he is coming to understand that other powers will want to step into the void created by group think strategies, but I don't think he, or his national security teams truly believe that other nation-states might actually believe their own view of the is better than what the US provides.

Take this quote from Pres Obama today:
Pres. Obama: "In just 4 months we will complete our combat mission in Afghanistan and America's longest war will come to a responsible end"

Last I checked, there was no truce signed by all combatants. Simply by proclaiming an end to US involvement doesn't mean the other side is going to go along with it. What it does mean is that other countries and interests are going to see a vacuum and from previous patterns of US behaviour they know that we will be reluctant to get back into "America's longest war". Just look at another quote from today:Pres. Obama: "Our military action in Iraq has to be part of a broader strategy ... to take our fight to ISIL" and Pres. Obama: "American combat troops will not be returning to fight in Iraq", this isn't the first time we upfront take a whole level off the table. I get that you don't want to send troops, and that ideally no troops would have to go back, but if you telegraph it, others gain strength from perceived weakness.

I think it's fair to say (and I could be wrong) that most of our wars have started when people miscalculated US intent. I see this advisor build up in Iraq, and think of the advisors in Vietnam. I see regional flare ups, and think of how WWI started because someone killed an arch duke and it escalated. I see the US thinking putting harsh sanctions on Russia is a way to change the mind of Putin, and think of the harsh sanctions that led to the rise of Hitler.

Maybe we are the great shining example, and all other nations will see us and think Gosh, that's who we want to follow. BUT, I highly believe that others see our heavy handedness much like the Roman Empire's was felt, and they see our demise as an opening for their greatness. Be it a new Caliphate, a return to the Chinese empire, or the Russian control over the former soviet bloc.

And that's not even touching the surface of republican and democrat national policy. Ugh. Can I get back to the distraction of football now.

[Giantone]

What is it you want , what is it that you think we (Obama) should either do or have done ? You name these things ...


Benghazi
Russian flights testing US airspace
Chinese intercept of US patrol planes
Chinese assertion of rights over disputed territories
Corporations merging with international partners and transferring out of the US to avoid new taxes
regional conflicts (Ukraine, Isr/Gaza, Libya )

People in the US aren't happy,people everywhere are not happy and the US is the cause or the answer ,damned if we do and damned if we don't ! The new technology that there is people know things within mins if not seconds of when things happen and want to know who, what, where, when, thing is in the old days we didn't know everything and that was a good thing .I knew of the NSA ,CIA and FBI and I knew what they did and they protected America ,I did not need to know how they did there job ,just keep doing it .Ignorant some might call it ,no , I had faith in my country and it's leaders ,that is why they were elected even the ones I did not vote for .
Now everyone is under the gun (wrong choice of words) if you have a phone you are a reporter ,a photographer and now it's your job to get the news out regardless if you know what started whatever it is your texting , tweeting or instagraming about.Do you believe that with out "social media" and of these problems would be as big as they are today ,yes they are important I don't want to belittle any of them that is not my purpose ,people died and are dying in these conflicts .

1)Benghazi - a total FU on every front ,people in many places didn't do their job ,will be a republican buzz word .
2)Russian flights testing US airspace - this has been going on for decades ,so what ?
3)Chinese intercept of US patrol planes - See #2 , we do it to China ,they do it to others and Russa does it to us ,again so what ?
4)Chinese assertion of rights over disputed territories - Wrong without a doubt but again it has been going on for years ,usally we sit down and negotiate something with them .
5) Corporations merging with international partners and transferring out of the US to avoid new taxes - Ok ,still not new and has been going on lots O places just not in the USA for decades .
6)regional conflicts (Ukraine, Isr/Gaza, Libya ) see #4

[tshile]

I would have been happy on the Benghazi front if the administration didn't lie to us to protect an upcoming election.

That's the lowest of the low in my opinion.


#5 is easy - if you do that you should be disqualified from federal grants and tax breaks immediately. I'd even consider playing higher taxes on companies that do this because - fuck them, that's because.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by tshile

I would have been happy on the Benghazi front if the administration didn't lie to us to protect an upcoming election.

That's the lowest of the low in my opinion.


#5 is easy - if you do that you should be disqualified from federal grants and tax breaks immediately. I'd even consider playing higher taxes on companies that do this because - fuck them, that's because.

I still don't think they lied ,one hand does'nt know what the other has said or done a total FU but I don't believe they are lying .

On #5) I agree with you but again this has been going on for years and nobody from either party has or will do a damn thing about it .

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Giantone

I still don't think they lied ,one hand does'nt know what the other has said or done a total FU but I don't believe they are lying .

On #5) I agree with you but again this has been going on for years and nobody from either party has or will do a damn thing about it .

Well, we have quite a bit of proof that they at least lied to the american people for a few weeks, presumably to avoid what may have been significant bad PR on the foreign policy front for a president running for re-election at the time.

I have a hard time using your excuse for #5 because there are a lot of problems like that and I don't think "well no one else has fixed it either" is a very good excuse. I think majority of the problems (real problems) we face in this country are decades old and still exist because no one has taken the time to actually fix them, and because the general public refuses to hold anyone accountable outside of crafting nicely-worded talking points when it's the other team's guy in office.

To name a few: multiple different infrastructure issues, education issues, poverty, immigration, and any real progress on race issues since the 60's.

[CRedskinsRule]

G1 you are a perfect example of what some would call a flock of sheeple. Yes lots of what I reference has been going on the past 30 it so years. That's why I said it was not a political jab at Pres Obama. I was trying to emphasize the march of world culture, that there are political tides with undercurrents that are hundreds of years strong, and when you transition from one strong unchallenged state (the US in this case) to a hegamony of near equal competing states you either find balance and understanding of the conflicting powers ie 1960s to 90s between the USSR and USA, or you find a multitude of powers where an inadvertent action can lead to great calamities, ie the world leading to WWI. I think we are very close to the WWI model right now when you throw the following players together:
China, Russia, Japan, Iran, the. US, and the EU, and a Muslim substate that exists in multiple facets throughout the middle east. You take powder keg zones like Israel /Syria/Gaza, NK/SK, and the Urals around Ukraine, and we either find a new balance or one of the powder kegs goes off.

My point in referencing our President is mainly that he fits in the mold of Woodrow Wilson or Neville Chamberlain in that regard. His ideals are valid but they may lead us right where he desparately wants to avoid.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

G1 you are a perfect example of what some would call a flock of sheeple. Yes lots of what I reference has been going on the past 30 it so years. .

LOL, I have heard that before and it is always the saying of the young .I'm almost 12 years older than you .I understand what it is you are getting at I just want to tell you that as time goes on and like it or not it happens to everyone you views do change .Just a note the things I pointed out as you said going on for 30 years, well it's more like 50 or 60 .

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Giantone

LOL, I have heard that before and it is always the saying of the young .I'm almost 12 years older than you .I understand what it is you are getting at I just want to tell you that as time goes on and like it or not it happens to everyone you views do change .Just a note the things I pointed out as you said going on for 30 years, well it's more like 50 or 60 .

It's actually more like all of human history. You don't really get the point if you think that we aren't at an epochal moment in history. We have gone from a bipolar power center in the world to a momentary unipolar one, and what we are seeing now is the emergence of a multipolar world structure, one that our government initiated somewhere during the 2nd Iraq war. Historians will look back better than we do now, and be able to define the point at which US power shifted.

I had to laugh loudly at the "almost 12 years older" comment. I'm not 9 and you 21 or some distinctive note like that. Being 47, with my fair share of world travel, college and military training, and life events, I am pretty confident that my view won't undergo drastic revisions in the next 10 years. Maybe yours will, and I seriously hope so from most of your off-topic discussions, but I feel confident that you will hold on to your sheeplistic attitude and continue to defend that which is by common sense indefensible, argue that the status quo is simply acceptable because it's been the status quo, and so on. Feel free to have the last word if you choose, because I won't continue this engagement with you.