Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Problem is if you fire Gruden who do they hire? You can not get an elite or upcoming coach to come here. Anyone associated w/ the Pats like Vrabel or McDaniels would never come here. Harbaugh would lol if Allen called him. It would have be someone who's crossed paths w/ Allen. Basically another Tampa reject or perhaps Callahan.

Yeah this makes absolutely no sense. Sorry.

Any offensive-minded head coach would jump at the opportunity to work with Cousins and an offensive line that features Scherff, Trent, and Morgan Moses.

They look at their chances of being successful before they consider the problems that their bosses would present.

Josh McDaniels had Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow in Denver. You don't think he'd love a shot to work with a proven quarterback? If Hue Jackson gets let go from Cleveland, you don't think he'd jump at a shot to work with Cousins after having to put up with dreck in Cleveland?

But the one part of your point I'll concede is that a major reason not to move on from Gruden is that Bruce will be in charge of the hire, which means he'll most likely focus too narrowly and consider only candidates with whom he's had previous experience.

But that's another reason (of many) to fire Allen, it's not a reason to throw up your hands and say well the average Jay Gruden is the best we're going to do.

[Schneed10]

If we were to fire Gruden, and we manage to get Cousins on a long term contract, I think we'll be the best available job in the NFL, by far.

[MTK]

Who says Cousins would want to stay here with another HC? I think this talk of canning Gruden is way too premature. I don’t see him going anywhere.

[Meks]

Maybe firing him isnt the best option but the guy, for me at least, needs to give up the play calling duties. Theres no way we should have lost that game on Sunday and no one way 9ers should have even had a chance as well.. He's crossed the line IMO.

[MTK]

People had very similar complaints about McVay the last few years as a play caller. To me it’s a seriously overrated complaint. If guys make their blocks we convert that 4th down. If the call was a QB sneak or an up the gut run that got stuffed people would be complaining about that call too. Players have to execute and they simply did not. I’d have to double check but I think it was Paul that blew his assignment on the play.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by MTK

People had very similar complaints about McVay the last few years as a play caller. To me it’s a seriously overrated complaint. If guys make their blocks we convert that 4th down. If the call was a QB sneak or an up the gut run that got stuffed people would be complaining about that call too. Players have to execute and they simply did not. I’d have to double check but I think it was Paul that blew his assignment on the play.

I agree with the execution issue with this team. Too many damn plays left on the field. Vernon Davis multiple drops, mis-tackles by the defense in the last 6 mins of game, fuckin Crowder not getting the bubble screen audible, Cousins not seeing the blitzer last play in reg....just too many mistakes.

Way to early to fire Jay...


In regards to McVay, he did abandon the run too much. Now he has Gurley and runs it well. Probably more of a talent thing...but still

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by MTK

People had very similar complaints about McVay the last few years as a play caller. To me it’s a seriously overrated complaint. If guys make their blocks we convert that 4th down. If the call was a QB sneak or an up the gut run that got stuffed people would be complaining about that call too. Players have to execute and they simply did not. I’d have to double check but I think it was Paul that blew his assignment on the play.

Agreed. The penalty on the FG, KC's intentional grounding (even it wasn't), all those things are on the players. But at the same token, some coaches struggle more with game management than others, and Gruden will always be one who does. I don't understand wanting him to give up play calling, I mean we put up solid points against top defenses all year long. The question I have is why do the Skins go into brain freeze at the end of half's and games. I just don't understand that at all.

[Schneed10]

Actually playcalling is the one area where I think Gruden is quite a bit above average.

On Cousins, you're right, you have to get him under contract before you can make a move on the coach. Can't fire Gruden and expect Cousins to think signing long term is his best option.

Can't move on from Gruden until we know what our future is with Kirk. So from that perspective I agree it's premature to make a move now. You wait until the QB situation resolves.

But let's put it this way - I feel like I've seen all there is to see with Jay. I'd be extremely surprised if I feel differently in March. We're headed for 8-8 or 9-7, yet again, and it's just not good enough for me.

[Meks]

the lack of killer instinct in his play calling - though i loved the crazy fake punt - the 3 straight runs that didn;t work against SF and almost lossed us that game, didn;t work again and i feel like he has no balls when the shit is about to hit the fan..... it's just discouraging ... get kirk out of the pocket he is capable of picking up 1 yard or tossing a quick pass.... smh all ya needed was a first down man..... thats it.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Agreed. The penalty on the FG, KC's intentional grounding (even it wasn't), all those things are on the players. But at the same token, some coaches struggle more with game management than others, and Gruden will always be one who does. I don't understand wanting him to give up play calling, I mean we put up solid points against top defenses all year long. The question I have is why do the Skins go into brain freeze at the end of half's and games. I just don't understand that at all.

I think McVay was the one who brought an awful lot of organization and structure to the organization. That's not Jay's strength. So in those two minute situations, the contingency plans aren't clear.

The fact that Cousins had to look to the sideline to get a hand signal from Gruden to ditch the ball against 8 in the box is a sign that they haven't coached Cousins well enough. He's smart enough and experienced enough to handle something like Jay telling him at practice - hey in a two minute situation if you see 8 in the box against this play, find a way to check out of it or ditch the ball.

It didn't happen, and Kirk is getting hand signals from the sideline pre-snap telling him what to do. That's not a good sign, it shows the QB isn't prepared for those contingencies. Nevermind the fact that the grounding was the wrong call by the refs there, I'm just bothered by Cousins having to pick up a signal from the sideline at all. I don't think Jay sees two or three steps ahead, that's his limitation.

If I'm a boxer I want to have a counter move and a counter-counter move for everything my opponent throws at me. The chaos in the last two minutes tells me that both Gruden and Manusky have limitations with seeing a few steps ahead.

[Meks]

yea i really would like cousins having much more freedom at the line pre snap in general, and that hand signal shit during a 2 minute is nothing but a hinderance.

[Schneed10]

Another sign of that limitation - Jay doesn't set teams up in the red zone as a playcaller. Some playcallers, if they have 1st and goal from the 5, will use a certain personnel group and formation for all three plays, and the first two plays if they don't work are intended to, on the third play, get the defense to bite on a fake.

Sean Payton did this on the game-tying two point conversion on Sunday, they had been running right quite a bit so they faked it having the line block to the right and then Kamara countered left as Brees pitched to him. It got one blocker against Preston Smith and all Kamara had to do was outrace D Hall to the corner.

They had been setting that up with tendencies. Gruden's play calling is much more well let's see if this works, OK now let's try this, now let's try this. He's done well with zone read fakes by running Cousins at the goalline but to me that's about the extent of his efforts to set a team up with a strategic sequence.

I think he reacts to what he sees, he doesn't anticipate what he's likely to see and devise a strategy to beat it. He's average.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah this makes absolutely no sense. Sorry.

Any offensive-minded head coach would jump at the opportunity to work with Cousins and an offensive line that features Scherff, Trent, and Morgan Moses.

They look at their chances of being successful before they consider the problems that their bosses would present.

Josh McDaniels had Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow in Denver. You don't think he'd love a shot to work with a proven quarterback? If Hue Jackson gets let go from Cleveland, you don't think he'd jump at a shot to work with Cousins after having to put up with dreck in Cleveland?

But the one part of your point I'll concede is that a major reason not to move on from Gruden is that Bruce will be in charge of the hire, which means he'll most likely focus too narrowly and consider only candidates with whom he's had previous experience.

But that's another reason (of many) to fire Allen, it's not a reason to throw up your hands and say well the average Jay Gruden is the best we're going to do.

McDaniels would never come here, I just don't see that. Sorry but Denver at that time had/has a much more reputable reputation around the league than the Redskins. Jackson would come here, I'll give you that.

[metalskins]

Why do people assume the status of the head coach has absolutely no barring on contract negotiations with the quarterback? I believe it absolutely does in this situation. If Cousins re-signs with Washington, what will make it attractive is the fact that he stays within the offense that he has excelled in, and sticks with the head coach who has put trust and faith in him to lead the team. Why is that so hard to understand? Before the season, Cousins was linked to either the LA Rams (McVay), or San Fran (Shanahan.) Why? Because he knows those coaches and knows the system. That would likely be the reason (other than the monetary reason) he stays in Washington. And I would not be surprised in the least that the status of the head coach for future seasons plays a role in contract negotiations with Kirk Cousins. If Cousins thinks Gruden might get canned, he's likely to jump ship.

Personally, I think all of this talk about canning Gruden is nuts. Back when this team was a 5 win team on a regular basis, we dreamed of having a team that could at least be over .500. Now, we want to fire a head coach who still has a chance to lead the team to a third straight winning season, albeit absent of a playoff berth, in spite of the fact that we've lost so many playmakers to IR and playmakers to free agency. To be OK with firing Gruden and not give any shade to Bruce Allen is just mind-boggling to me. Allen fires the best guy we've had at player personnel acquisition over a "personal" thing. Allen screwed up contract negotiations with Kirk Cousins. Allen lets two 1000 yard receivers walk in free agency. Allen doesn't know squat when it comes to player personnel, but wants final say in something he doesn't know. And yet, we all talk about firing the head coach and thinking we'll get the cream of the crop to come in next year and lead this team to the Super Bowl! Madness guys! Madness! Please pass what your puffing!

[VTSkins1961]

Only way Cousins signs if is Allen is fired