Tom "Iceman" Brady

[Pocket$ $traight]

Can this thread be frozen after Manning and Harrison abuse them this weekend? Why in the hell has a post about some other team's QB been ongoing for so long?

[dmek25]

Brady is our eras Montana, and Manning = Dan Marino. its all in what you like. big time stats, or big time rings. to me, the rings are the things. but saying the patriots won those super bowls because of their defense, is an idiotic statement

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by The Huddle

Exactly. The tired anti-Brady arguement boils down to:

Brady is good because of his team.
Manning is good in spite of his team.

Apparently Manning's stats were achieved without the benifit of an extremely talented offense designed to maximize his signature strength (his arm strength). It's all about Manning.

Meanwhile, the fact that the Pats are 12-1 in the playoffs with Brady says nothing about Brady.

See, the arguement that Manning's offensive mates are a reason why his stats look so much better than Brady's is a completely valid argument, but no one has put foward much of an arguement along those lines for me to respond to yet. Nobody has looked at Manning's numbers vs. Brady's numbers and shown me that they are at least comprable (I believe while Brady has very solid numbers, Manning is just on a different level). If someone had done that this arguement wouldn't be so silly right now. The statement, "Manning's offense is better" is a blanket statement. That doesn't mean that Brady is automatically better. Brady has a better offense than Aaron Brooks, and surely Brooks isn't better, but by your logic he would be. Use stats, or other evidence to make a case.

"Meanwhile, the fact that the Pats are 12-1 in the playoffs with Brady says nothing about Brady." Exactly. You might be learning. It certainly doesn't hurt him, but that says nothing about Tom Brady's role in those 13 games. Actually, Brady's played pretty well in most of those games, but none of you have brought that up yet. You've just thrown the record figure out there with no subsequent arguement.

It's not really about Manning's team and Brady's team at all. You've made it that way. Here's how I would state my view.

Tom Brady is a very good NFL QB.
Manning is the best Quarterback on the planet.

Given a choice I guarantee you 2/3rds of the GMs in the NFL would take Brady over Manning if the goal was "winning a championship" and not "putting up gaudy stats".

And those 2/3 are the Matt Millen's of the world who will be out of a job in 5 years. Because if they can't see something as obvious as Manning>Brady (all hard evidence points this way), how can they be expected to select the best talent at OTHER positions where the evidence is less clear?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by dmek25

saying the patriots won those super bowls because of their defense, is an idiotic statement

It's a simplistic statement, one that I'd never say. It would be discrediting the role of the Patriots offense in their playoff run, which I'm NOT doing.

Think about a team with all the offensive players of the Colts, and all the defensive players of the Patriots. Would that team not beat the actual Colts and the actual Patriots 9/10 times each? Of course they would.

Be careful, Dmek, to not get sucked into the rings vs. stats arguement. It's where we started. The modern day Patriots have 3 rings to the Colts 0 because Scott Pioli built a better team from the ground up than Bill Polian did. That much is obvious.

We aren't trying to decide which team is better (the Patriots), only which QB is better. Rings don't help us decide that.

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Tom Brady is a very good NFL QB.
Manning is the best Quarterback on the planet.

why is manning the best ?
is it because of his stats ?

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

why is manning the best ?

Because GTripp said so.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GiantsSuck703

I dont get your argument, your basically saying that no matter how many clutch games Tom Brady has won that in your mind its discredited because his defense helped him win those games, although you then say that its Peyton Mannings defense, not his awful play in big games that has kept him from winning superbowls. Which to me, means your using your extremely obvious bias towards Peyton as your excuse for him being the better player. Your wrong, this isnt a matter of opinion, your just flat out wrong, Tom Brady has won the meaningless games and hes won the important games, hes a gamer and a former sixth round pick who had all the odds against him when he came into the league and basically took it over, hes not the most physically gifted QB, but hes a great leader and will carve up defenses like its nothing, i have seen nothing from Peyton Manning that makes me believe hes better than the 3-time superbowl champion Tom Brady.

How many clutch games has Tom Brady won? What defines a clutch game? Why am I wasting my time answering a post that contains only stuff I've already responded to?

In my mind, Brady's record is discredited SOME because he has such a great team. This arguement can be easily avoided by keeping all team stats out of it. Record, rings, all of the such. Work with Brady's stats, Brady's history, Brady's resume. If you want to work with outside the box stuff like contract numbers, and even arbitrary stuff like pro bowl apperences (as bad as that is), I can work with that. Compare that to Manning. After all, is that not what we are debating? Comparing Manning's record to Brady's record is like comparing apples to oranges. Very different conditions. Leave the 52 other members of the Pats out of this, and we can move on.

If you want to call him clutch, I'll live, but first:

1) define what makes it a clutch game. How much time is left, how many points are they down, etc...

2) actually show me how this makes him better than Manning.

i have seen nothing from Peyton Manning that makes me believe hes better than the 3-time superbowl champion Tom Brady.

OK. Hows this:

Tom Brady (Career): 1896/3064 61.9% 21564 yards 7.0 yards/attempt 147 TDs 78 INTs QB Rating 88.4

Peyton Manning (Career): 3131/4890 64.0% 37586 yards 7.7 yards/attempt 275 TD 139 INT QB Rating 94.4

Clear advantage Manning.

[wolfeskins]

if the colts lose on sunday it will prove, once again, that manning cracks under the pressure of big games.
if the colts win then manning will have proved his critics wrong and he will be one step closer to catching brady for the best stat of all....superbowl wins !

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

why is manning the best ?
is it because of his stats ?

Yes, his superior analytical mind and skill are reflected in his statistics.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

if the colts lose on sunday it will prove, once again, that manning cracks under the pressure of big games.
if the colts win then manning will have proved his critics wrong and he will be one step closer to catching brady for the best stat of all....superbowl wins !

What if Manning doesn't crack, and plays well, but the Colts poor run D returns and Dillion/Maroney/Faulk combine for 250 yards leading a Patriot victory?

Could happen.

[Defensewins]

Lol!

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

In my mind, Brady's record is discredited SOME because he has such a great team. This arguement can be easily avoided by keeping all team stats out of it. Record, rings, all of the such. .

thats just plain stupid. so are we going to throw out some of mannings completions and passing yards and adjust his completion percentage because his recievers are,greatly, better than the patriots recievers. if we keep "all" stats out of it, then how do we determine who's better ? or do you just want to throw out the stats that favor brady ?

[Defensewins]

Yes.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

thats just plain stupid. so are we going to throw out some of mannings completions and passing yards and adjust his completion percentage because his recievers are,greatly, better than the patriots recievers. if we keep "all" stats out of it, then how do we determine who's better ? or do you just want to throw out the stats that favor brady ?

That's the thing, NO stats favor Brady. Part of that is Manning's offense, but mostly it's because he's jsut better, plain and simple.

Honestly, how much of a difference do you think his recievers make? How many tackles do Harrison and Wayne break? Probably fewer than Graham and Watson. Can't prove it though.

[Defensewins]

You will soon realize you can not use any fact, stat or accomplishment of Bradys that might be better than Mannings.
If you point to the terrible games Manning had in the playoffs, Mr. GTripp0012 will blame the Colts offensive line, defense or the other teams incredible defense. Everyone else is to blame for Mannings terrible playoff performances other than Manning, including the bad NE weather. LOL.

According to Mr. GTripp0012 Manning has never had a bad playoff game. His bad individual performances in the playoffs are everyone elses fault, not Mannings. Manning is a patsie.