Updated Title: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Reinstated

[Dirtbag59]

Funny thing about all of this is even though the players are granted 53% of total revenue the fact remains that the owners don't have to pay guaranteed contracts like the NHL, NBA, and MLB not to mention the fact that unlike the MLB and NHL the NFL doesn't have to assemble farm teams.

[NC_Skins]

You can write as many letters as you want, but you are dealing with a group of men who's bottom line is money. They don't give a rats ass about the fans, just their money. They don't give a **** if you go without football, it's about a higher profit margin for them. They don't give a **** if it messes up your family outing on Sundays, just hand t hem the cash. They don't give a **** who this affects beyond their pockets.

I say the average American person is stupid, and I think the test scores worldwide back up that statement. Corporate America doesn't want intelligent people in this country because it'll ruin everything for them. They want you just smart enough to operate the machinery/PC, but dumb enough to believe the crap they shovel your direction.

You want action? You want results? Cut off their lifeline. Stop giving these guys money. Stop buying the merchandise, and stop buying the tickets. The owners just sit back and laugh at all you because no matter how bad they treat you, you keep on coming back for more.

This isn't meant to be insulting to anybody, just my view on this whole fiasco. The power lies in you.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I say the average American person is stupid, and I think the test scores worldwide back up that statement. Corporate America doesn't want intelligent people in this country because it'll ruin everything for them. They want you just smart enough to operate the machinery/PC, but dumb enough to believe the crap they shovel your direction.

.

I say you're dead wrong and you need to think a bit before you type.I might agree that the average American consumer is not well informed and that corporate America takes advantage of that but stupid............no.

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

You can write as many letters as you want, but you are dealing with a group of men who's bottom line is money. They don't give a rats ass about the fans, just their money. They don't give a **** if you go without football, it's about a higher profit margin for them. They don't give a **** if it messes up your family outing on Sundays, just hand t hem the cash. They don't give a **** who this affects beyond their pockets.

I say the average American person is stupid, and I think the test scores worldwide back up that statement. Corporate America doesn't want intelligent people in this country because it'll ruin everything for them. They want you just smart enough to operate the machinery/PC, but dumb enough to believe the crap they shovel your direction.

You want action? You want results? Cut off their lifeline. Stop giving these guys money. Stop buying the merchandise, and stop buying the tickets. The owners just sit back and laugh at all you because no matter how bad they treat you, you keep on coming back for more.

This isn't meant to be insulting to anybody, just my view on this whole fiasco. The power lies in you.

Those are all in China and India so your argument sucks.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

Funny thing about all of this is even though the players are granted 53% of total revenue the fact remains that the owners don't have to pay guaranteed contracts like the NHL, NBA, and MLB not to mention the fact that unlike the MLB and NHL the NFL doesn't have to assemble farm teams.

So if a player signs a 6 yr deal and the team cuts him after 3 yrs they don't have to pay him his guaranteed money? For what ever reason I thought thats why it was called "guaranteed?"

I'd much prefer the NFL had farm teams. Atleast the rookies would have a little more developement time.

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

So if a player signs a 6 yr deal and the team cuts him after 3 yrs they don't have to pay him his guaranteed money? For what ever reason I thought thats why it was called "guaranteed?"

I'd much prefer the NFL had farm teams. Atleast the rookies would have a little more developement time.

What I meant to say was only a portion of it is guaranteed in the NFL. The majority of contracts in the other 3 leagues are guaranteed a 100%. See Michael Nylander in the NHL and Stephon Marbury in the NBA. A-Rod for example is going to see virtually every penny of his $275 million contract before taxes and alimony. Sure some teams offer tryout contracts and incentive laden deals but for the most part when you sign a deal with the other 3 leagues you are going to see every penny....before taxes.

Haynesworth on the other hand signs a $100 million contract but when he signed it most experts were calling it a $40 million contract.

[CRedskinsRule]

NC_Skins, Does your sentiment include the players?

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

NC_Skins, Does your sentiment include the players?

I would have to say yes, but I firmly believe that players value fans more than the owners do. Had the players been the one that opted out of this CBA, I would be saying the same thing in regards to them.


It's rare you find a owner like JKC that was pretty much a fan favorite because he gave back to the community. In fact, the majority of his inheritance went to his foundation to give scholarships to needy people. You'll be hard-pressed to find another owner in the NFL like that.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I would have to say yes, but I firmly believe that players value fans more than the owners do. Had the players been the one that opted out of this CBA, I would be saying the same thing in regards to them.


It's rare you find a owner like JKC that was pretty much a fan favorite because he gave back to the community. In fact, the majority of his inheritance went to his foundation to give scholarships to needy people. You'll be hard-pressed to find another owner in the NFL like that.

Now I'm confused. I know the owners probably wanted a whole new CBA and to get it meant going past the deadline without an agreement, but...

I don't think the owners were the ones who backed out first. I don't care how much garbage the offer was by the owners, the players still had 6 hrs on the clock to negotiate when they walked out and decertified. In my opinion they walked out of the CBA. It was my understanding that if the owners didn't lockout the players each individual player could file a law suit against the owner which is why they locked out to protect themselves. Plus the players felt they would have the upper hand by decertifying (which is illegal) so the owners locked out to get that upper hand back.

Am I wrong?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Now I'm confused. I know the owners probably wanted a whole new CBA and to get it meant going past the deadline without an agreement, but...

I don't think the owners were the ones who backed out first. I don't care how much garbage the offer was by the owners, the players still had 6 hrs on the clock to negotiate when they walked out and decertified. In my opinion they walked out of the CBA. It was my understanding that if the owners didn't lockout the players each individual player could file a law suit against the owner which is why they locked out to protect themselves. Plus the players felt they would have the upper hand by decertifying (which is illegal) so the owners locked out to get that upper hand back.

Am I wrong?

kinda -
1 -the owners opted out 2 years ago. Had they not done that the current CBA would have been in place for 2 more years, and the 2011 season would not be in jeopardy.

(note that the language to opt out was such that either party could opt out. Clearly the players were not going to because they like the CBA as it was written. The owners took their legal option to opt out, now most on the players' side make it sound like that was the sole cause for where we are)

2 - the CBA included provisions for handling labor law at the expiration:

Section 2. Labor Exemption: In effectuation of this Agreement, the Parties agree that the labor exemption from the antitrust laws applies during the express term of this Agreement and to any conduct of the NFL and the NFLPA taken in accordance with the terms of this Agreement during its express term.

Section 3. CBA Expiration:
(a) Following the expiration of the express term of this Agreement, then, if the NFLPA is in existence as a union, the Parties agree that none of the Class Members (as defined in the Settlement Agreement) nor any player represented by the NFLPA shall be able to commence an action, or assert a claim, under the antitrust laws for conduct occurring, until either: (i) the Management Council and NFLPA have bargained to impasse; or (ii) six (6) months after such expiration, whichever is later; at that time, the Parties reserve any arguments they may make regarding the application of thelabor exemption.

(b) The Parties agree that, after the expiration of the express term of this Agreement, in the event that at that time or any time thereafter a majority of players indicate that they wish to end the collective bargaining status of the NFLPA on or after expiration of this Agreement, the NFL and its Clubs and their respective heirs, executors, administrators, representatives, agents, successors and assigns waive any rights they may have to assert any antitrust labor exemption defense based upon any claim that the termination by the NFLPA of its status as a collective bargaining representative is Article LVII, Mutual Reservation of Rights: Labor Exemption or would be a sham, pretext, ineffective, requires additional steps, or has not in fact occurred.

so basically, in Section 2, both sides agree that Antitrust doesn't apply during the CBA.

then Section 3 deals with AFTER the CBA expires

in Section 3a the owners are promised that no antitrust action will be taken until 6 months or a mediation impasse occur

and in Section 3b the players are assured that the NFL will not declare a decertification (again after the CBA expires) a sham.

(It seems clear to me, that the NFLPA didn't honor this in the spirit it was intended. That is, it gave both sides assurances of good faith behaviour, and the NFLPA circumvented those assurances in order to gain a huge strong arm tactic over the NFL.)

3 - whether the decertification is illegal is at the center of the case before the appeals court. That is why the fact that it will be expedited and ruled on before July is an excellent thing. By the spirit of the above CBA, the decertification certainly exhibits some degree of bad faith to honor the 6 month period both had agreed upon.

In my opinion, the owners violated good faith in the TV deals, and the players violated good faith by decertifying before the CBA expired (note section 2 both sides agreed to maintain Anti-trust protection for the term of the CBA. Basically the owners didn't get the right legal-ese to protect themselves from the NFLPA breaking the spirit of the agreement)

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

kinda -
1 -the owners opted out 2 years ago. Had they not done that the current CBA would have been in place for 2 more years, and the 2011 season would not be in jeopardy.

(note that the language to opt out was such that either party could opt out. Clearly the players were not going to because they like the CBA as it was written. The owners took their legal option to opt out, now most on the players' side make it sound like that was the sole cause for where we are)

2 - the CBA included provisions for handling labor law at the expiration:


so basically, in Section 2, both sides agree that Antitrust doesn't apply during the CBA.

then Section 3 deals with AFTER the CBA expires

in Section 3a the owners are promised that no antitrust action will be taken until 6 months or a mediation impasse occur

and in Section 3b the players are assured that the NFL will not declare a decertification (again after the CBA expires) a sham.

(It seems clear to me, that the NFLPA didn't honor this in the spirit it was intended. That is, it gave both sides assurances of good faith behaviour, and the NFLPA circumvented those assurances in order to gain a huge strong arm tactic over the NFL.)

3 - whether the decertification is illegal is at the center of the case before the appeals court. That is why the fact that it will be expedited and ruled on before July is an excellent thing. By the spirit of the above CBA, the decertification certainly exhibits some degree of bad faith to honor the 6 month period both had agreed upon.

In my opinion, the owners violated good faith in the TV deals, and the players violated good faith by decertifying before the CBA expired (note section 2 both sides agreed to maintain Anti-trust protection for the term of the CBA. Basically the owners didn't get the right legal-ese to protect themselves from the NFLPA breaking the spirit of the agreement)

It was my understanding that as you said there would be no suit AFTER the CBA expired.. as long as the NFLPA (union) was still in place. and as you pointed out nothing can occurr legally until after 6 months which is the mediation process. Then the Union could file suit.

But because the Union/players didn't want to wait the 6 months to file their law suits and wanted to have the upper hand they decertified early prior to the CBA so they could file their law suits. The only thing the owners could do to protect themselves was lock out. Again this is what I'm to understand. I could be wrong. I'm just trying to clarify.

basically the owners were trying to force something the players didn't want, the players decertified in attempts to force the owners to do something they didn't want, then the owners locked out to again force the players to do something they don't want. Now it's in the courts hands. The owners are hoping the courts will be fair and say they can keep the extra billion or atleast split it 50/50. The players are hoping the courts look at it and say no the owners can not take away from what you already have.

[SolidSnake84]

I read the above link that had the fans' conversation with Roger Goodell.

He said that he has plans to speak to the season ticket holders from all 32 clubs. When is he going to speak with the Redskins, or have I already missed that in this thread somewhere??

[hooskins]

I would say stupid, a good amount of Americans think the President is Muslim, voting percentage is relatively low, test scores, etc. Just because you are stupid, doesn't mean you are a bad person and I think that's why Giantone is getting all touchy\feely about this.

I could go on and on. Let me know if you want more examples, but yeah stupid is about right.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by hooskins

I would say stupid, a good amount of Americans think the President is Muslim, voting percentage is relatively low, test scores, etc. Just because you are stupid, doesn't mean you are a bad person and I think that's why Giantone is getting all touchy\feely about this.

I could go on and on. Let me know if you want more examples, but yeah stupid is about right.

Wait, wait, wait, Obama is not Muslim? Let me get this right... his father was Muslim, he was born in a Muslim country, he gets sent to Muslim schools growing up, his father listed Obama's faith as Muslim on the school documents,

And all because he files a Cirtificate of Live Birth in Hawaii and the paper reads "RECEIVED" (in 2005) which only means the paper was filled out and sent to them, not reading "FILED" which is how most read when they have been co-oberated by the hospital which the title of the hospital did not exist back at the time Obama was supposedly born and didn't take on the hospital name until well into the 70's...

Does not mean Obama is a Christian. A lot of people change faiths especially if it benefits them.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Wait, wait, wait, Obama is not Muslim? Let me get this right... his father was Muslim, he was born in a Muslim country, he gets sent to Muslim schools growing up, his father listed Obama's faith as Muslim on the school documents,

And all because he files a Cirtificate of Live Birth in Hawaii and the paper reads "RECEIVED" (in 2005) which only means the paper was filled out and sent to them, not reading "FILED" which is how most read when they have been co-oberated by the hospital which the title of the hospital did not exist back at the time Obama was supposedly born and didn't take on the hospital name until well into the 70's...

Does not mean Obama is a Christian. A lot of people change faiths especially if it benefits them.

Point and case.