F... gas prices

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

So because we should have addressed DE five years ago in the draft, we shouldn't address it now?

Don't we still have the need?

all im saying is that this isn't a single party issue. if congress wants to be taken seriously, let them explain what they have been doing the last couple of decades to try and alleviate our dependency on oil. because most of those guys are career politicians

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

So because we should have addressed DE five years ago in the draft, we shouldn't address it now?

Don't we still have the need?

Not if it means bringing in Jason Taylor at the expense of a first round pick. Your faith in big oil is frighteningly naive.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

But it's not that simple. First, we get a benefit in the form of lower gas prices to help offset the tax issue. Secondly, if the government reduces expenditures while giving those tax breaks, then the buck isn't passed. I recognize Bush has bloated spending excessively, which I certainly don't condone. But you can't look at a tax break and directly link it to the public "picking up the tab" because it assumes all else remains constant in a vacuum.

oh contraire, mon fraire. those oil companies are specifically told those breaks are under the conditions of re investing in further research and development. and we all know our gov't would never lie to us, would they? or are the lunatics running the asylum again?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by dmek25

oh contraire, mon fraire. those oil companies are specifically told those breaks are under the conditions of re investing in further research and development. and we all know our gov't would never lie to us, would they? or are the lunatics running the asylum again?

You're missing the point. I'm talking about how the federal government sets their SPENDING budget.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by dmek25

all im saying is that this isn't a single party issue. if congress wants to be taken seriously, let them explain what they have been doing the last couple of decades to try and alleviate our dependency on oil. because most of those guys are career politicians

I want to be clear on that, too - I put this squarely on the office holders of the past 35 years (1973 should have been a call to action, even though it was an artificial market constraint), which includes a mostly Democrat congress (but not by much) and a pretty even split of Democrat and Republican presidents.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by dmek25

all im saying is that this isn't a single party issue. if congress wants to be taken seriously, let them explain what they have been doing the last couple of decades to try and alleviate our dependency on oil. because most of those guys are career politicians

Let's not blame this oil crisis on the government. What are they supposed to do, outlaw gasoline or order everyone and every company who owns a car to turn in their keys? As you noted, they've been doling out money for years in the search for alternative fuels. Contrary to popular belief, the government is not and never will be an omniscient and omnipotent body that can solve every problem presented to society. So, I don't think the government should be blasted every time something bad happens.

Moreover, private companies have expended millions upon millions (and perhaps billions) of dollars in the search for cheap, efficient, and green fuels that are compatible with our cars, trucks, etc. To date, no one has discovered a good alternative.

The only thing that is going to force this country to kick its oil addiction is money. As gas becomes more and more expensive, the pressure to find alternative energy sources grows and grows. When someone else develops a cheaper source of energy that is compatible with our engines, they're going to become trillionaires and society will be able to kick gas to the curb.

[onlydarksets]

The government regulates utilities, why not gasoline? Once the automobile became an integral part of the American economy, I think the government had a responsibility to oversee that it's future was secure.

I think you are fooling yourself if you think that there are no good alternatives to gasoline. The oil lobby (and, through it, the automobile lobby) has had a vested interest in riding this out as long as possible. The government decided to take a passive role and not set any timetables (like they did for broadcasters and HDTV). Evolutionary change is painful, but it's usually in the best interest of the future.

I will add that we are equally to blame by not demanding alternatives through the market. However, the alternatives have generally been beyond the financial reach of 95%+ of the households out there.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

The government regulates utilities, why not gasoline? Once the automobile became an integral part of the American economy, I think the government had a responsibility to oversee that it's future was secure.

I never claimed the government should not or does not regulate gasoline. The government undoubtedly regulates gasoline, both directly and indirectly. Those little stickers on the gas pumps are mandated by the government. The government taxes gasoline. Gas station owners are subject to a whole host of regulations. The government also indirectly regulates gasoline by subjecting oil explorers, producers, refiners, etc. to heavy regulation. The government regulates fuel efficiency standards in cars. I am just unclear as to how the government can regulate gas in a way that solves the problem that we are currently experiencing.

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

I think you are fooling yourself if you think that there are no good alternatives to gasoline. The oil lobby (and, through it, the automobile lobby) has had a vested interest in riding this out as long as possible. The government decided to take a passive role and not set any timetables (like they did for broadcasters and HDTV). Evolutionary change is painful, but it's usually in the best interest of the future.

Please name a single realistic alternative to gasoline. Just as the oil lobby "has a vested interest in riding this out," other large multi-billion dollar companies would stand to make trillions upon trillions if they could readily develop a cheap, efficient, and green alternative. So, I don't quite understand why people cite oil company conspiracy theories as the real reason why we haven't found an alternative to gas, when there are trillions of reasons why existing powerful companies have been, are, and will be exploring alternatives.

[htownskinfan]

this guy has the answer,our problems are solved,hes made gas out of water

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I never claimed the government should not or does not regulate gasoline. The government undoubtedly regulates gasoline, both directly and indirectly. Those little stickers on the gas pumps are mandated by the government. The government taxes gasoline. Gas station owners are subject to a whole host of regulations. The government also indirectly regulates gasoline by subjecting oil explorers, producers, refiners, etc. to heavy regulation. The government regulates fuel efficiency standards in cars. I am just unclear as to how the government can regulate gas in a way that solves the problem that we are currently experiencing.

Please name a single realistic alternative to gasoline. Just as the oil lobby "has a vested interest in riding this out," other large multi-billion dollar companies would stand to make trillions upon trillions if they could readily develop a cheap, efficient, and green alternative. So, I don't quite understand why people cite oil company conspiracy theories as the real reason why we haven't found an alternative to gas, when there are trillions of reasons why existing powerful companies have been, are, and will be exploring alternatives.

My wording was poor in my previous post. I'm not saying the alternatives exist in a viable form. I meant that there is no reason they should not exist, if the proper motivations were there over the past 35 years. That's the regulation that the government failed to provide - incentives to develop alternative fuels that actually motivate.

The past 10 years have proved beyond a doubt that America is absolutely and irrevocably dependent on oil. What other resource would we stand for a quadruple increase in price in such a short period? It is the government's responsibility to ensure scarcity isn't a problem for a resource that the government depends on to that extent.

It's also not as simple as some random company inventing a new engine and making trillions. The investment required to create an alternate fuel is a barrier to entry to almost every company out there. It would take a huge chunk out of even big oil. It's not just inventing a car that runs on corn, it's creating the infrastructure to allow people to get their corn refills (or whatever).

In the end, though, we are where we are, and that can't be changed. The government shouldn't get a free pass for not addressing the issue earlier, though.

[FRPLG]

Amory Lovins on winning the oil endgame | Video on TED.com

This guy has a great take on the issue and actually presents an argument of hope. I lvoe this site it has some great stuff.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

It's also not as simple as some random company inventing a new engine and making trillions.

It could be just that simple. Read this very interesting Newsweek article. I don't believe the process will be quick, cheap or easy, but with trillions of dollars to be made, the incentive and investment dollars are there.

Also, I'm not sure what role the government should play in this mess. Remember, our government is the one that tried to kill Castro with exploding cigars, couldn't deliver drinking water to Katrina victims, and pays $500 for toilet seats. What makes people optimistic that they can solve a problem that greedy multi-billion dollar companies can't?

[saden1]

Good news everybody...Shell, Exxon Mobile, Total, Chevron and BP are final stages of negotiating a no-bid contract with the Iraqi Oil Ministry. We're in for some treats.

[dmek25]

but saden, its NOT about the oil. and sheriff, im not blaming the oil crisis on the gov't. but these guys are supposed to be the genius's they claim to be, they should have been looking at alternatives as far back as the 70's. its funny how all of a sudden its a big issue, to everyone.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by dmek25

but saden, its NOT about the oil. and sheriff, im not blaming the oil crisis on the gov't. but these guys are supposed to be the genius's they claim to be, they should have been looking at alternatives as far back as the 70's. its funny how all of a sudden its a big issue, to everyone.

The problem has been that gas has been cheap so alternatives to gas have been to expensive. Why would we spend more for a car that burns on alternative fuels when we could buy the cheaper car which burns cheap gas. Now that gas has gone up like it has it makes alternative fuels more affordable. Even though oil co. sell oil if they could have found a cheaper alternative to oil they would have done so but gas was to cheap to compete with. Think about this. Would you invest in a Co. that says its looking for an alternative to gas but it will be more expensive and very hard to market? No. So while they have done research there was just not enough demand until the past year or so. I say we drill here at home but we force the Oils Co. drilling here to spend a certain percentage of profits on research. This will buy us some time and help control gas prices. This country has become what it is because we have been a leader in inventing new things (I don't really need to list them we all know). So I'm confident someone or some co. will find a solution to this problem and if they make millions or billions good for them.