the new health care?

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

If the opposition is going to be delivered by racist xenophobic anti-Semites there's nothing to worry about. Ugly people are rarely attractive to all the people. Let the games begin or should I say resume.

Wow, you and Nancy Pelosi completely missed the point. How are the people protesting with the Nazi symbol crossed out, anti-Semites? The comparison being made is the tactics of the Obama Admin and the left being compared to the National Socialist movement under Hitler. While there are similarities, I don't think it's an effective tactic to make that comparison in the Health Care debate.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

The partisan divide in this country is sickening. What's worse is that many so-called intelligent people in this thread play right into it; supporting their side unconditionally in everything, blaming the other side for inflammatory tactics, harping on personal things that have nothing to do with the issues: like Clinton's blowjob from Monica and Sanford's affair.

Set that absurd bullshit aside, for the love of God. Evaluate everything objectively, no matter which side champions it. Only then are you being open enough to make decisions/cast your vote for the betterment of society. When you go along with this partisan drivel, all you do is succumb to your ego and pride. Let it go, sometimes the folks you voted for are right, sometimes they're not, who cares.

You don't have to agree with everything your party says; to do so only confirms that you're not using your brain.

S10, as a pioneer in calling idiots "idiots" I'm not sure what is meant by objective. When elected officials and "average" citizens talk about "death panel" provisions in the health care bill you got to start pointing fingers and proclaim "you're in idiot, you're an idiot, you too are an idiot, and you, and you, etc." Honestly, you can only be objective if the other side is coming from an objective position. Granted, the other side doesn't consider statists to be objective in matters dear to them.

Sanford's affair had everything to do with the issues, specially the issue of family values. If Sanford is going to run under the umbrella of being a righteous candidate who will uphold the "values" of this country and then f*cks around on his wife you got to call him out on that, especially with his hateration of gays. A similar case can be made against Clinton and his lying.

p.s. Obama is a jerk for wheeling and dealing behind the scenes with drug makers...80 billion in concessions my ass.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

This is what I keep saying. And it floats right up to the politics. The two-party system is just too restrictive in handling the complexities of a nation like ours. It fosters bad ideas and is largely responsible for the mess we're in now.

It's really a difficult line. I believe in the two party system far more than the fragmented European style systems. But, without doing a historical essay and research, I think that since the nationalization of politics through a powerful media, the 2 party structure has been able to squash any grass root movements that might have risen to challenge them. I think back to the support that Perot received, and feel that in the 1800's that same movement would have had the opportunity to rise up and replace one of the two mainstreams. this is kind of how we kept new ideas percolating with out having our government sorta fall apart when one coalition or another decided to leave.

I hope historians will be able to look back at this period and really evaluate the good and bad effects of the media. I know we are too enmeshed in the now to get an objective view of it.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Truly saden-esque response. I don't remember any "bogus chain E-mails" posted here, maybe I missed something. The Patriot Act was designed to provide surveillance on terrorist suspects, the left went nuts claiming all sorts of "innocent civilians" were prosecuted under the Patriot Act. But yet I don't recall any evidence of any prosecution not terror related.

Nothing in Cornyn's letter is false.

hint: jsarno is a fan of posting chain emails

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

S10, as a pioneer in calling idiots "idiots" I'm not sure what is meant by objective. When elected officials and "average" citizens talk about "death panel" provisions in the health care bill you got to start pointing fingers and proclaim "you're in idiot, you're an idiot, you too are an idiot, and you, and you, etc." Honestly, you can only be objective if the other side is coming from an objective position. Granted, the other side doesn't consider statists to be objective in matters dear to them.

Or... instead of playing into the adversarial game which leads only to more fingerpointing and no real dialogue, you could try to rise above it and actually seek real solutions and find common ground with the non-idiots.

Perhaps, just perhaps, we don't need you to tell us what is idiotic but would prefer it if you tried to find intelligent solutions that would much be much more effective in highlighting the idiocy of idiots.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Wow, you and Nancy Pelosi completely missed the point. How are the people protesting with the Nazi symbol crossed out, anti-Semites? The comparison being made is the tactics of the Obama Admin and the left being compared to the National Socialist movement under Hitler. While there are similarities, I don't think it's an effective tactic to make that comparison in the Health Care debate.

Similarities eh? Pray tell, what kind?

I was merely highlighting that two can play the game of demonization. If you must know though, brother Emanuel and Axelrod won't appreciate being associated with Hitler and the Nazi party neither will the Jewish members of congress and the 70% of the Jews that voted for the Administration.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

hint: jsarno is a fan of posting chain emails

Forgot about jsarno, LOL.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Or... instead of playing into the adversarial game which leads only to more fingerpointing and no real dialogue, you could try to rise above it and actually seek real solutions and find common ground with the non-idiots.

You are 100% right. I need to improve in this regard.

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Perhaps, just perhaps, we don't need you to tell us what is idiotic but would prefer it if you tried to find intelligent solutions that would much be much more effective in highlighting the idiocy of idiots.

I think I do a good job in this regard most of the time but sometimes you just have to let an idiot know he is an idiot.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Truly saden-esque response. I don't remember any "bogus chain E-mails" posted here, maybe I missed something. The Patriot Act was designed to provide surveillance on terrorist suspects, the left went nuts claiming all sorts of "innocent civilians" were prosecuted under the Patriot Act. But yet I don't recall any evidence of any prosecution not terror related.

Nothing in Cornyn's letter is false.

The text Cornyn is referencing is in this blog post on the whitehouse.gov website. Here is the menacing text:

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

God help us all!

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

Similarities eh? Pray tell, what kind?

I was merely highlighting that two can play the game of demonization. If you must know though, brother Emanuel and Axelrod won't appreciate being associated with Hitler and the Nazi party neither will the Jewish members of congress and the 70% of the Jews that voted for the Administration.

You are very capable of reading the 25-point plan of the National Socialist Program and identifying the similarities.

And let me restate; "While there are similarities, I don't think it's an effective tactic to make that comparison in the Health Care debate."

It's counter-productive to the right to use this comparison. The real negative issues of Obama Care are what need to be discussed (gov't control, cost, reduction of quality of care, reduction of Medicare svcs, etc.).

[CRedskinsRule]

Saden,

Glad to see you are back. What ideas, or constructive dialogue themes, can we discuss? I would love to see the basic list, so we can discuss ways of making our country better, rather than moving back to the rhetorical debates.

Thanks in advance

[saden1]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Saden,

Glad to see you are back. What ideas, or constructive dialogue themes, can we discuss? I would love to see the basic list, so we can discuss ways of making our country better, rather than moving back to the rhetorical debates.

Thanks in advance

I just got back from vacation in EU and D.C. area...I'll have them for you once I'm settled down, get what I've missed at work all sorted out and have some free to jot them down.

[CRedskinsRule]

dang, you were on vacation last time too. Well, I am looking forward to them.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

dang, you were on vacation last time too. Well, I am looking forward to them.

Yes, it's the vacation season and I have 4 weeks to kill...just so you know and I'll be going on another in a few months too.

p.s. I learned a lot about George Washington during my visit to Mount Vernon. I didn't know that 30% of the estate is still owned by decendents of his slaves.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

You are very capable of reading the 25-point plan of the National Socialist Program and identifying the similarities.

And let me restate; "While there are similarities, I don't think it's an effective tactic to make that comparison in the Health Care debate."

It's counter-productive to the right to use this comparison. The real negative issues of Obama Care are what need to be discussed (gov't control, cost, reduction of quality of care, reduction of Medicare svcs, etc.).

Here's the 25 point plan, tell me about the similarities:

1. We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination of people.
2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.
6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.
7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since [2 August 1914], be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:
11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.
12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The good of the state before the good of the individual.[12]
25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.