The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'd rather keep Collins for the emergency situation. Remember, he's the one that said it takes a year to learn this system. He may be old, but he's cheap, and he knows how to execute the Saunders offense.

Getting Rattay doesn't get us anywhere, IMO.

Knowing is half the battle. It's also the easy part that anyone can do.

Having the talent experience to get the work done is the other half, and that's the hard part that only a select few american individuals have ever acheieved. I believed Rattay has proven that his mind and skills are proficient at the NFL level, whereas Collins has done nothing of the sort.

I understand that it takes a year worth of experience in Saunders system to be totally comfortable, but I think that's the case in any system. Brunell and Campbell both played relatively well with less than a year of experience and total comfort in the system. It's not like there's a rule that a guy can't play if he's in his first year in this system, it just means we'll be optimistic that he will get a tad better as he gets more comfortable.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

GTripp, this makes no sense. You want to cut a guy who knows Saunders' offense for a guy who has no clue how to run it? Why?

You'd have to pay more for Rattay than Collins.

I agree that you need QBs who are familiar with and comfortable in Saunders' offense. However, I think that argument weighs in favor of signing Rattay.

Brunell and Collins are almost certainly done after this season. So it's a foregone conclusion that we are going to have to bring in someone new.....and soon. So, we might as well bring in a new #3 who will learn the offense this year and be ready to step up to #2 next season when Brunell is gone, as opposed to having a new #2 and #3 next season.

[Redskins549]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'd rather keep Collins for the emergency situation. Remember, he's the one that said it takes a year to learn this system. He may be old, but he's cheap, and he knows how to execute the Saunders offense.

Getting Rattay doesn't get us anywhere, IMO.

i agree

[crawfish]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

There's no reason to keep Collins instead of Brunell. They are both old guys who won't be here after 2008. The difference is one can play and one can not.

Oh, and Brunell just restructed his deal making his cap hit even more relevant. It costs money to get rid of him this year.

Collins has never been given the chance. We already know that Brunell can't play anymore. All he does is throw little dump off passes. Never challenges the defenses downfield. A college QB can do what Brunell did last year. Sorry but dump off passes are not Al S. offense. Brunell can not run this offense. Period. Brunell should go to a west coast offense at this point of his career. Or just retire.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

GTripp, this makes no sense. You want to cut a guy who knows Saunders' offense for a guy who has no clue how to run it? Why?

You'd have to pay more for Rattay than Collins.

It's not hard to "know Saunders' offense." Memorize the playbook, and you know his offense.

Comfort level is another thing, and Collins probably has that. Doesn't make a lot of difference if he can't play.

I'm essentially rejecting the notion that Al Saunders' offensive philosophy is somehow mystical and tougher to understand than an average NFL offense. The human brain is capable of far more than memorizing 700 pages worth of plays. If that's part of your job, and you can't learn Saunders' offense in 3 months or less to the point where you can play proficiently, you're probably in the wrong business.

I don't think Collins is of much use to this team. He's obviously the best QB on the roster if Brunell and Campbell get hurt, and that's probably not going to happen, but Rattay is on the market now. We know we are going to be looking at the market for a backup next year. Why not make the move for a QB now while it's a GREAT value.

[SmootSmack]

Would Bradshaw be making such a big fuss about Ratatouille if they both weren't Louisiana Tech guys?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Knowing is half the battle. It's also the easy part that anyone can do.

Having the talent experience to get the work done is the other half, and that's the hard part that only a select few american individuals have ever acheieved. I believed Rattay has proven that his mind and skills are proficient at the NFL level, whereas Collins has done nothing of the sort.

I understand that it takes a year worth of experience in Saunders system to be totally comfortable, but I think that's the case in any system. Brunell and Campbell both played relatively well with less than a year of experience and total comfort in the system. It's not like there's a rule that a guy can't play if he's in his first year in this system, it just means we'll be optimistic that he will get a tad better as he gets more comfortable.

So many things wrong with this post.

1) How in the world can you say Collins hasn't proven that his mind and skills are proficient at the NFL level? The guy hasn't gotten on the field since 1997, he's had durable QBs in front of him the whole damn time. He hasn't proven anything good, and he hasn't proven anything bad. He hasn't proven anything at all.

2) Brunell played reasonably well with less than a year of experience and total comfort in the system? You call what he did "reasonably well"?? Please don't read me his QB rating. I don't care about high-completion dinks and dunks when we're 17 points behind. He couldn't threaten the deep part of the field, and defenses ate our lunch by taking away the intermediate part of the field by sitting in cover 2s. Brunell was horrible.

3) Collins' real value to the team is that he can talk to Campbell and Brunell about running the offense. He can pass knowledge along. I can see the desire to get younger at QB, but that doesn't make sense when your primary goal is to bring Campbell along first and foremost. Why would you take away a player who could be a mentor regarding the technicalities of the offense?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by crawfish

Collins has never been given the chance. We already know that Brunell can't play anymore. All he does is throw little dump off passes. Never challenges the defenses downfield. A college QB can do what Brunell did last year. Sorry but dump off passes are not Al S. offense. Brunell can not run this offense. Period. Brunell should go to a west coast offense at this point of his career. Or just retire.

"A college QB can do what Brunell did last year"

That's just totally and utterly incorrect. College/Rookie QBs will not complete 63% of their passes for 6.8 yards per an attempt. It's completely unpresidented.

Watch the highlight reels from the first 9 games of last year. Sure, highlights are a poor way to accurately evaluate talent, but they prove your arguement that "all he does is throw dump passes" and "Never challenges the defense downfield" just dead wrong.

Lots of incorrectness abound here. If you think Collins should be given a chance, tell us what you've seen in him that makes you think he deserves more of a chance than any other QB in the league, particuarly Rattay.

[crawfish]

Let's just hope and pray that Jason Campbell does not get hurt. But if he does I think Collins can come in and do a similar job that Huard did. Everyone says Colllins can't play but did the guy ever get the chance in KC? No. So how do you realy know? No one knew if Trent Green could play until Gus lost his confidence. Then he came in and played well on a poor team. You can't judge Collins by pre season games. That's silly.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I agree that you need QBs who are familiar with and comfortable in Saunders' offense. However, I think that argument weighs in favor of signing Rattay.

Brunell and Collins are almost certainly done after this season. So it's a foregone conclusion that we are going to have to bring in someone new.....and soon. So, we might as well bring in a new #3 who will learn the offense this year and be ready to step up to #2 next season when Brunell is gone, as opposed to having a new #2 and #3 next season.

Why are you assuming Collins will be gone after this season?? Please explain why that's a "foregone conclusion?"

To date, with all of our cap maneuvering, the team has kept Todd Collins on the roster despite the fact that they could cut him right this very minute and save $1.2 million in cap space. They've decided to keep him anyway, because they see value in him.

I see no reason to believe we won't consider signing him to a one-year deal next season at or near the vet minimum. All indications are that the guy is still in favor in Saunders' mind, mainly for the comfort level of having someone who knows what they're doing in an emergency.

A foregone conclusion that he's out of here? That couldn't be further from the truth.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

So many things wrong with this post.

1) How in the world can you say Collins hasn't proven that his mind and skills are proficient at the NFL level? The guy hasn't gotten on the field since 1997, he's had durable QBs in front of him the whole damn time. He hasn't proven anything good, and he hasn't proven anything bad. He hasn't proven anything at all.

2) Brunell played reasonably well with less than a year of experience and total comfort in the system? You call what he did "reasonably well"?? Please don't read me his QB rating. I don't care about high-completion dinks and dunks when we're 17 points behind. He couldn't threaten the deep part of the field, and defenses ate our lunch by taking away the intermediate part of the field by sitting in cover 2s. Brunell was horrible.

3) Collins' real value to the team is that he can talk to Campbell and Brunell about running the offense. He can pass knowledge along. I can see the desire to get younger at QB, but that doesn't make sense when your primary goal is to bring Campbell along first and foremost. Why would you take away a player who could be a mentor regarding the technicalities of the offense?

1) I didn't say Collins had proven anything either way. As FRPLG said earlier, only a handful of guys DO have what it takes to play QB in this league. The expectation is that a majority of the 96 QBs in this league can't play. What's promising about Collins? College career? Brief playing stints? Anything?

Surprises happen, but I wouldn't put my money on Todd Collins being a hidden talent.

2) Well, I completely disagree. Because we DO have another sample to compare him to, and that's Campbells first seven starts of his career. You know as well as I do that the passing offense in Campbell's first five starts was a regression from Brunell of very sizable proportions. I didn't think he "sucked" in those starts, because I have an accurate representation of what Brunell was doing in the context of a poor team.

3) Why would we keep Collins on the roster to "pass knowledge along?" What are we paying Saunders for? Coaches coach, players play.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

It's not hard to "know Saunders' offense." Memorize the playbook, and you know his offense.

Comfort level is another thing, and Collins probably has that. Doesn't make a lot of difference if he can't play.

I'm essentially rejecting the notion that Al Saunders' offensive philosophy is somehow mystical and tougher to understand than an average NFL offense. The human brain is capable of far more than memorizing 700 pages worth of plays. If that's part of your job, and you can't learn Saunders' offense in 3 months or less to the point where you can play proficiently, you're probably in the wrong business.

I don't think Collins is of much use to this team. He's obviously the best QB on the roster if Brunell and Campbell get hurt, and that's probably not going to happen, but Rattay is on the market now. We know we are going to be looking at the market for a backup next year. Why not make the move for a QB now while it's a GREAT value.

Well, we went 5-11 last year running this offense, that's the biggest indication that it takes a while to learn this offense.

I think you're absolutely crazy for insisting it's not hard to learn Saunders' offense. Memorizing plays is the easy part. The hard part is going through those progressions on the field with linemen running at you, without having to think. When you're playing well, you're not thinking, you're reacting. THAT's what takes a year to get down pat.

It's as if you learned nothing from the past season. You can't just change an offense and expect the team to pick it up seamlessly.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Would Bradshaw be making such a big fuss about Ratatouille if they both weren't Louisiana Tech guys?

No, of course not. But I agree with Bradshaw, and I'm not a La. Tech guy in any way.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Schneed,

The main reason why I think it's a virtual lock that Collins will be gone is that he's turning 36 this season and will be 37 next season. There are very few, if any, 37 yo QBs left in the league. He could buck the trend, but I doubt it.

In any event, Collins and Brunell are both retiring soon and I'd like to see a younger QB brought in.

[crawfish]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

"A college QB can do what Brunell did last year"

That's just totally and utterly incorrect. College/Rookie QBs will not complete 63% of their passes for 6.8 yards per an attempt. It's completely unpresidented.

Watch the highlight reels from the first 9 games of last year. Sure, highlights are a poor way to accurately evaluate talent, but they prove your arguement that "all he does is throw dump passes" and "Never challenges the defense downfield" just dead wrong.

Lots of incorrectness abound here. If you think Collins should be given a chance, tell us what you've seen in him that makes you think he deserves more of a chance than any other QB in the league, particuarly Rattay.

I watched the 1st 9 games and it hurt my eyes. It hurt my eyes watching Brunell be a shadow of his former self and throw for 120 yards. His stats are mostly garbage stats at the end of games and at the end of halfs. So that stat stuff your feeding me isn't the real story.

I'm not by any means dogging on Brunell. I liked him in Jack. But he just can't get it done anymore. He gets hurt too much now and it hurts his play. Father time gets us all. So this is why I think Collins should be given more of a chance. We already know what Mr. Brunell can do. Now let's see what Collins can do. That's all I'm ssaying.